The wolf is now dwelling with the lamb, and this has been true for two millennium. Is this a surprising statement? While this is not true in the animal kingdom, it is most certainly true in Christ, for His Church. I’m referring, of course, to two well-known parallel passages in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65:
[Isaiah 11:1-10] There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit… The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
[Isaiah 65:25] “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.
PHOTO SOURCE: TERRY CROPPER
On what authority do I say that this is a present reality? The authority I stand on is the New Testament, which interprets the Old Testament far better than I ever could. Specifically, I would point to the testimony of the apostle Paul in Romans 15. The short study that follows already exists on this blog, but it’s buried in a longer post regarding Revelation 20 and the millennium. It’s a valuable study, so I’d like to re-post it here on its own. Terry Cropper has also posted this study on his “New Jerusalem Community” site (at this link). As Terry says, “Seven centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ, the prophet Isaiah peered into the future and depicted the glorious nature of the Messianic era with these words.” Here’s the study as it appears on Terry’s site:
In what sense is the wolf now dwelling with the lamb (Isaiah 11:6), the cow and the bear grazing together (verse 7), the nursing child playing over the hole of the cobra (verse 8), and the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord (verse 9)? Good question—let’s ask the apostle Paul. He quoted the next verse as being fulfilled in his own lifetime: “IN THAT DAY the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of Him shall the nations inquire, and His resting place shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10). Romans 15:12, where Paul cites this verse, reads this way: “The root of Jesse will come, even He who arises to rule the Gentiles, in Him will the Gentiles hope” (Romans 15:12).
The context of both Isaiah 11 and Romans 15 suggests a bringing together in Christ the remnant of God’s people from among both the Jews and the Gentiles. Isaiah uses figurative language; Paul in Romans is more straightforward. Why not? The “mystery of God” spoken of by the prophets had been revealed and was about to be fulfilled in Paul’s day (compare Ephesians 3:6 with Revelation 10:7).
“This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (Eph. 3:6). There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:12-13; Galatians 3:28, 5:6, 6:15-16); “the dividing wall of hostility” has been broken down (Eph. 2:14).
The wolf (Gentiles), so to speak, now dwells safely with the lamb (Jews), i.e. among those who belong to Christ. The Gentile nations which were deceived and dwelling “far off” (Ephesians 2:11-22; Romans 9:22-26) prior to Christ’s work on the cross are now brought near (so that without distinction “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”; Romans 10:12-13).
To expand a little bit on this, Paul states in Romans 15:8 his purpose for quoting Isaiah 11:10 four verses later in Romans 15:12.
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy.
Clearly, then, Isaiah’s prophecy was confirmed (fulfilled) when Jesus came to earth to be a servant even to the point of going to the cross on our behalf. This also brought about a great harvest among the Gentiles. Isaiah 11 goes on to immediately say this:
In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, fromHamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
Did this not occur on Pentecost, when Jews from “every nation under heaven” were gathered to hear the gospel preached through the mouth of Peter?
Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:5-11)
Paul’s application of classic “premillennial passages” (Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65) to his own lifetime (Romans 15) is not an isolated incident in the New Testament. Many of these passages have been arbitrarily equated with the millennium (spoken of solely in Revelation 20), thrust into our future and declared to be unfulfilled, when the New Testament says otherwise. Simply put, a lot of Old Testament passages taken by premillennialists to refer to a future, physical/earthly kingdom centered around earthly Jerusalem actually have to do with a present, non-physical/earthly kingdom centered around the New Jerusalem, the Church (Gal. 4:24-27, Heb. 12:22-24).
Let us rejoice that God’s kingdom, marked by “righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17), is here with us now.
Pursuing Truth 
I agree with Adam Maarschalk concerning the fulfilliment of this prophecy. However, I also understand that this prophecy will be recognized or realized in expressions beyond just spiritual in that new heaven and earth (hereafter). The Bible is laced—from the very first chapter of Genesis, through Revelation—with types and shadows, parallel prophecies, mirrored events, and already/not yet factors of prophecies. This is a recognized part of Hebrew and Christian theology. I can write a whole book on this and list the various prophecies and promises of God that we can experience here on earth in a limited way, but we will see it fulfilled in the hereafter in its most expressed and complete way.
Therefore, I believe that this prophecy in discussion will be recognized in heaven in a very literal sense. Having said that, I do not believe in “a future, physical/earthly kingdom centered around earthly Jerusalem.” I do not see literal Jerusalem or literal Israel as players in any fulfillments of eschatological events to come. I do believe in a “new” (not restored) heaven and earth, after the elements of this world and universe is destroyed.
Nevertheless, I do believe the Church needs to wake up and understand Adam Maarschalk’s comments and how they can be applied to today’s believers.
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Dr. Burks,
Thank you for your good thoughts on this post. It’s clear that we agree on a number of important points when it comes to eschatology and the subject of modern-day Israel. As we both know, however, we don’t quite view “the new heavens and earth” in the same way.
I’m curious which passages of Scripture you believe state or imply that “the new heavens and earth” is to be physically created following the destruction of the universe. Very much related to this subject, I just posted a study on Matthew 24:35, which also touches on what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18, what Peter said in II Peter 3, and what Isaiah said in Isaiah 65:
http://kloposmasm.com/2012/02/13/matthew-2435-51-part-1-of-2/
That post sheds a lot of light on what I’ve come to believe on this particular subject.
Blessings,
Adam
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Adam,
I have read the discourse from Matthew that you listed and brought to my attention. Many, if not most, partial-preterists believe that the warnings about AD 70 go up to verse 35. Thereafter, it is understood that Jesus spoke briefly reasurring His disciples that He will return physically for His Church someday. But because they will not be around, He did not spend much time on the issue, except to confirm that there will be an end of the world.
Even Kenneth Gentry, as strong-partial preterist believes the AD 70 subject ends at verse 35. Most others I have studied agree with this, except the hyper-preterists or full preterists. It is here, where we may disagree. If we do disagree with this, then we have a brother’s disagreement and cannot argue it any further.
Having said that, the reason I believe that this world and the cosmos will come to a physical ending, to make way for a new heaven and new earth, is because of Peter’s statement (2 Peter 3:10-12) that the earth’s “elements will melt with fervent heat.” This strongly implies that everything will be annihilated or destroyed by fire, heat, or some other method that would bring it to melt. But then again, you may believe that Peter’s statement referred to the 1st century event in AD 70 as well, which shuts down our discussion.
Theologically, the Lord does replace physical matter in some of His plans by destroying the old. For instance, I had a recent discussion with another individual that is a partial preterist, but not in a extreme way. In fact, he is probably less than I am in his preterism. But he is having a problem understanding that his world and cosmos will be totally destroyed to make room for a new heaven and new earth. He leans towards a transformation in the last day when the Lord returns, in that the Lord will miraculously use the elements that exist to change it to a “new heaven and new earth.” But my question is, is that our glorified bodies, which we will receive in the hereafter, will be a totally new body. It will not be a transformation, as it is spiritually speaking in today’s world when we become Christians. If so, what do we do with the many believers throughout history that have had their bodies burned to death and completely destroyed. Many bodies that were not embalmed turned to dust and no longer exist. But God will provide a new glorified body for each of them. He can do the same with this earth and the cosmos as we know them.
I have not been given any evidence or facts to this date that would change my mind on this. it is not issue that I am not willing to change on, but I need a good reason. And I have not come across that reason yet. I hope this makes sense.
God bless,
Chuck
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My brother in Christ-do you know that wolf used to be lion? It used to say lion because of mountain lions and images which had african lions illustrated. its now for some reason chnaged to wolf. look up mandela effect. I am 41 years old and along with other believer my age burned this passage to memory. ask any pastor or christian really my age or older, and they will tell you it used to say lion. the timeline has changed. crazy right? check into it
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Hi Richard,
I’m a bit younger than you, but not by much. I do remember always hearing “the lion and the lamb will lay down together” before realizing that Isaiah 11 actually says, “the wolf will dwell with the lamb.” Are you saying that older Bibles actually had the word “lion” in Isaiah 11:6? I’m not aware of that, but I’d be interested in seeing the evidence if that’s the case.
I figured it was just a misquote that caught on and became popular. I also wondered if people simply got the Isaiah 11:6 text mixed up with Revelation 5:5-6, which refers to Jesus as both “Lion” and “Lamb.”
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Hi Dr. Burks,
I don’t necessarily believe that having different understandings of these things means that conversations have to be shut down. If we do disagree in the end, though, then, as you said, it will be as brothers.
Yes, I’ve read Kenneth Gentry’s viewpoint that Matthew 24 is fulfilled up through verse 34 (or 35), and that the rest of the chapter remains unfulfilled. As I explained in my study of Matthew 24:35 (cited above), one reason I don’t believe this to be true is because of what I see in Luke 17:22-37. In that text, four portions are directly parallel to content found within Matthew 24:1-34, and two other portions are directly parallel to content found within Matthew 24:35-51.
So in Luke 17:22-37, Jesus blends these six references (four of which are present in Matthew 24:1-34, and two of which are present in Matthew 24:35-51) together, without any distinctions related to time. Therefore, I feel that I would not be consistent if I acknowledge that everything Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-34 is tied to His own first century generation, but insist that what He said in Matthew 24:35 and beyond is not yet fulfilled. Otherwise, in Luke 17:22-37, Jesus arbitrarily switched back and forth between speaking of first century events and events in the 21st century (or beyond).
In that same study, I observed that Galatians 4:9 and Colossians 2:20 make use of the same word translated as “elements” in II Peter 3:10. It’s clear that Paul spoke in these two texts, not of the cosmos, but of what was contained in the Law:
In addition, I understand a number of Scriptures to indicate that this physical earth will never end:
[1] “Neither will I smite anymore every living thing, as I have done” (Genesis 8:21).
[2] “And He built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which He has established forever” (Psalm 78:69).
[3] “The world is also established that it cannot be moved” (Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10).
[4] “…who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever” (Psalm 104:5).
[5] “One generation passes away, and another generation comes, but the earth abides forever” (Ecclesiastes 1:4).
I do agree with you that our present earthly bodies will have nothing to do with the way that we will appear on the other side of the grave. I believe that I hinted at a different understanding in an earlier conversation on another thread, but I’ve thought this question through more thoroughly and do see it the same way that you do.
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Adam, I don’t think I meant to say that when two can’t agree they should “shut it down” or stop talking. What I am trying to say is that if we are discussing a block wall and I adamantly claim it is white, while you declare it is black, and we can’t convince each other any differently after debating it, we need to move on to other things and accept a brother’s disagreement. I can listen to your arguments and still declare that it is white. We find ourselves at a dead end road.
You seem to be very firm in your hyper-preterist belief, and I don’t think at this point I can change that about you. However, I am sure we have a lot we can agree on about the Lord.
As for me, I am a partial-preterist, as I cannot deny that Matthew 24 (up to verse 35) is about AD 70. I even believe that Revelation was written pre-70 and that the first 3 chapters speak to churches that existed at that time. I just cannot accept the full preterist idea, as it would change the whole core of theology as most mainline Christians believe today. It would take away the hope of all Christian believers today and make the Bible just a document of the past, with nothing for Christians of the ages beyond AD70. I just can’t step across that threshold of belief. Kenneth Gentry and others that believe even stronger than I in preterism, will agree with me on this.
In addition, it is my firm belief that we can make certain things in the Scripture fit anything we want to. We can spin the Scriptures and prophecies. Sometimes it is not on purpose, but just be perception. Having said that, I have enough reservation and respect for the preterist belief (it holds a strong argument) that I have listed in a parallel fashion, the preterist view, in my commentary of Revelation, Matthew 24, and eschatology in general.
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Dear Dr. Burks,
I also know that there is much we can agree on about the Lord, and that’s the beauty of it. Despite being in the minority with my belief in fulfilled eschatology, I still enjoy rich fellowship with many futurists, even Christian Zionist-leaning dispensationalists. We’re brothers and sisters, and part of God’s family through His grace.
It did take me a while before I was willing to leave the mainstream view(s) of eschatology, and to be willing to part ways with certain statements in the creeds. I do understand your dilemma. If “sola scriptura” is the path that God wants us to be on, though, and I believe it is, then I have to go with what I believe Scripture teaches, even if it’s in opposition to something in the creeds.
I do very much disagree that full preterism “take[s] away the hope of all Christian believers today and make[s] the Bible just a document of the past, with nothing for Christians of the ages beyond AD70.” If there’s a form of “hyper-preterism” out there that teaches anything like that, then I want nothing to do with it. We live in God’s kingdom, which is everlasting and ever-expanding. We have the same call today as God’s people did in 30-70 AD to walk in obedience to the teachings of Christ, to bear one another’s burdens, to love/prefer/bless one another, to proclaim the good news of the gospel to the lost around us, etc. We have access to the tree of life, with its leaves being for the healing of the nations. (Contrast that with John Hagee’s warmongering, for example.) All who are in Christ, but haven’t yet experienced physical death, we still have the hope of receiving our spiritual bodies at the time of our personal resurrection on the other side of the grave. I have hope that the gospel will be more deeply impacting Asia, Africa, South America, North America, and the rest of the world by the time I leave this earth than is now the case here in early 2012.
Mike Blume is a partial-preterist, but I really value an article that he wrote titled, “If Most of the Book of Revelation Is Fulfilled…What’s the Point of It Today?” Here’s the link to his article:
http://mikeblume.com/imply.htm
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Hi Adam,
Thanks for the recent reply to my comments. I have a couple of matters that possibly you can answer for my own understanding. Do full preterists believe that the world and humankind will continue throughout eternity? Does it just continue on and on, or is there and end, when God says time is up?
Many Christian scientists (astologers and such) have believed they have produced new evidence that the universe and cosmos did have a beginning (as according to Scripture) and that it is expanding again and deteriorating, as if it were set up fo an end. They are saying that the study of the cosmos with our new instruments to observe the edges of space has show that the universe is cooling and expanding and was designed to fail. If this is so, it would support those of us who believe the world has and designed ending.
Is there somewhere where I can view or look at a summary or outline of what the full preterists believe with scriptural evidence (or historical record) or proof (such as the following example):
-The Old Covenant (temporary)
-Rejection by Israel and the Jewish Nation; the Jews demanded the crucifixion of Christ, carried out by the Romans
-The heart of the religious center of the Old Covenant and Judiasm, Jerusalem, is judged and made desolate, carried out by the Romans
-Jews are killed, scattered, taken into slavery; Christians escape and left desolate by Rome for a short time.
-The New Covenant is now in place (eterna); Roman emporers of 1st century turn against Christianity
In my recent commentary, which contains a parallel look at preterism and my own conclusions, based on what I believe is sound exegesis and hermeneutic principles, I want to list a simple outline in a nutshell as to what the full preterists believe. I know you can’t provide scripture for everything I listed above, but I will also accept comments by historians, such as Josephus.
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We will all be hushed and silent in that day. It is hard, no, actually, the bible says it is impossible for us to imagine what things will be after Jesus comes for us. So to you both, you may both be right, you may both be wrong, concerning the New Heaven, the New Jerusalem, etc. But thank you to you both for rebuking Premillenialism, a teaching I believe to be the Aposatacy referred to in scriputre. More importantly than end time events, It is this teaching of 2 plans of salvation for 2 distinct groups of people, which was so rebuked by the Apostle Paul that is far more dangerous. Jesus knew what was to be, that is why He warned us not to get the order of events wrong. He knew the false teachings of this day. Premillenialism is contradicts scriputre at every turn from Gen. to Rev. I have been trying to witness to some Premill’s. It is more productive to beat one’s head against the wall. Even when shown the plainest of scriputres, spoken by Jesus Christ, in the Gospel, such as “John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do” they call Jesus a liar and say, —
“No, he has a lot more work to do on this earth.”
He is not on HIs Throne.
His Kingdom IS of this world. (though he said it is not)
He did not make a “SHORT WORK” on this earth, but has a “LONG WORK” to come.
The hour has no yet come when the Prince of this world was cast out.
His Kingdom is NOT FOREVER, but only a thousand years.
They proclaim a defeated Jesus who couldn’t get it right the first time, and the church is merely an afterthought. Plan B was the church.
They make the false claim that Jesus came to earth to set up an earthly Kingdom and was rejected, even though scriputure teaches the exact opposite— When they tried to make Him their earthly King, He fled from them and hid.
Isaiah 11 IS NOT fullfilled as Paul claimed it is in Romans 15
God IS a respecter of persons.
There IS still JEW and GREEK, and we “ARE NOT” all one in Christ.
I could go on and on.
Basically, they call Jesus a liar, and His apostles too, while they are at it. They take the entire New Testament and turn it inside out, and might as well throw it away altogether, because they are in their heart, Old Testament Jews, awaiting the Messiah’s Earthly reign.
No matter what clear passage you show them, all the ones I have spoken to say the exact same thing. They don’t care, they believe what they believe, they have been given higher spiritual knowledge. I should go away and pray. No matter how politely their articles are written, every one, every one, I have spoken with speak with the same arrogance and you cannot reason with them to even hear what you say. They all say the same thing. At least the ones I have tried to witness to. It is amazing to watch. Even with the clearest of passages spoken by Jesus Christ.
Most of those I have witnessed to also partake in the lie that most, if not all of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are gone and not for today. And many Premills believe He has not come yet anyway, but we are just being given a “Foretaste” of the Holy Spirit now, who will come in the future. It has taken me some time to realize they bare all the markings of those who will beleive the lie.
2 Thes 2 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Please post this. These might seem like strong words, but to preach another Gospel is damnation. Paul rebuked Peter for this same message of “DUAL GOSPELS”
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Extraordinarily creative! But such a hermeneutical piece of art presents as abstract impressionism. It is loose and limp and pliable and not tight at all. Sorry, Jesus, John and Paul still look like premillennialists to me!
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Hi Ross. You’re free to feel that way, of course.
When premillennialism was taught to me, I was told that Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 are descriptions of the 1000 years John described in Revelation 20:4-6. How my teachers and the authors they referenced came to that conclusion in the first place, I have no idea. Rev. 20 doesn’t allude to Isaiah, after all.
Now Paul does quote from Isaiah 11 in his epistle to the Romans. Does he not make an application from Isaiah’s prophecy regarding the coming together of Jews and Gentiles in his day? And if Isaiah 11:10 was fulfilled in 30 AD, then why would verse 6 remain unfulfilled, especially when Isaiah repeatedly ties the whole prophecy together by saying “in that day”?
If we remove premillennialism from the conversation, and just look at how Paul applied Isaiah 11 to his own time period, I believe the premise of this post (“Romans 15 Shows That Isaiah 11 Is Fulfilled”) is already apparent.
I also believe it’s evident that premillennialist teachers are at least incorrect when they teach that Isaiah 11 will only be fulfilled in an alleged future age.
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Romans 11 agrees with the OT, as well as, the Gospels and early Acts expectation of a real kingdom from heaven on Earth in which Israel is restored as the elect nation. The Gospels and Acts also present Israel as the same old rebellious nation also agreeing with Paul’s assessment in Romans. The restoration of that kingdom is not seen in Romans as it is seen in Revelation. In Revelation, Israel is ministering as per the OT and as per Paul in Romans who again prophesies of their restoration.
Is 11:4 speaks of the righteous judge under whose rule as Messianic king of the restored Israel this marvelous peace appears and we find directly in Revelation 19 where His rule is established. Then in ch 20 there comes the 1000 year Salem in accord with Isaiah. It is at that time the nations will flock to Abraham’s table. Then there will be peace among the animals as well.
We do not see any such peace now nor did Paul. Nor was that time of peace Paul’s interest in Romans. The unity of Jew and Gentile was Paul’s interest and such was central to his Gentile ministry in which was established the corporate body of Christ wherein an equality and a unity would be found between Jew and Gentile. Rom 15:16; 16:25-26. Now salvation of the Gentiles was not new as Paul quotes the idea from the OT, but Paul’s ministry was unique in seeing that Gentile salvation realized apart from covenant Israel and apart from covenant keeping. The OT never conceived of such a notion. It was not until Acts 15 that the old Jewish vanguard came to understand Paul’s unique ministry. There James also recognized that Gentile salvation was always part and parcel of God’s redemptive plan, they all just did not see it happening apart from the New Covenant and Israel’s national ministry.
Paul’s use of the OT is an apologetic for his unique and new mystery ministry to the Gentiles and the only relevant part is that the Gentiles were to be saved also. Is 11:10 was not fulfilled in the first century and if you take premillennialism off the table, your meal will be served without the dinnerware and cutlery! You will have your dinner served as if a cement truck dumped its load on your table in a big mess.
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Ross, you and I have very different paradigms when it comes to eschatology, the 1000 years of Revelation 20, and the identity and nature of Israel. Nevertheless, I appreciate you giving your feedback and speaking your mind.
For one thing (and there are several things), I don’t see Paul as teaching that Gentile salvation was realized apart from covenant Israel or apart from the new covenant. Instead, I see that he placed Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, seeing individuals in both groups as equally lost if they were outside of Christ, and having equal access to all the blessings found in the new covenant and in Christ if they looked to Him for salvation.
I’m rather astonished that you believe Isaiah 11:10 has not yet been fulfilled. Just to make sure this is what you meant to say, here is the text from Romans 15:8-13. It’s in verse 12 that Paul quotes from Isaiah 11:10.
It sure seems to me that to say Isaiah 11:10 remains unfulfilled is to say that Gentiles (non-Jews, ethnically speaking) are not yet finding and placing their hope in Christ. My goodness… Or am I missing or misinterpreting something that you’re saying?
As far as eating without dinnerware and cutlery goes, I did that often when I lived in Malaysia. It worked just fine, and the food tasted great. I’m just kidding, but I really am glad that my days of believing in premillennialism are behind me.
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Please see below
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Hi, Adam and Dr. Burks, I would just like to share a tidbit I found…Regarding 2 Peter 3:10 and “burning of elements” Strongs Concordance #4747 describes elements as ‘principles’, rudimentry principles, rudimentary on dictionary.com means ‘a mere beginning, a first slight appearance, undeveloped or imperfect form of something… ‘to burn up’ the imperfect principles….interesting don’t ya think? 🙂 Val
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PS: Great conversation guys! val
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Thanks, Val. Yes, that is very much interesting. Peter was speaking of the elements of the law – the law of Moses, as was Paul in a couple of instances where he used the same Greek word. Here’s a snippet from our study of Matthew 24:35 as relates to this subject:
Galatians 4:9 and Colossians 2:20 make use of the same word translated as “elements” in II Peter 3:10. It’s clear that Paul spoke there, not of the cosmos, but of what was contained in the Law:
[1] “But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years!” (Galatians 4:9-10).
[2] “If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’ (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?” (Colossians 2:20-22).
Source: http://kloposmasm.com/2012/02/13/matthew-2435-51-part-1-of-2/
In that post, you’ll see that Eusebius, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, and Charles Spurgeon are among those who understood that Peter was addressing the burning up of the temple and the elements used to carry out the commands under Mosaic Law. As far as Peter’s imagery of fire and burning goes, it’s good to remember that Jesus predicted that God would send an army to burn the city of those who rejected the wedding invitation and persecuted God’s servants and Son (Matthew 22:7).
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Hello everyone,
I don’t take time to bloviate or comment much on these online blogs and the network media, which is why you don’t hear from me very often. I do get some comments in my email at times and sometimes I feel the need to reply.
I want to comment and reply to the comments about “elements” as used in Peter’s letter. Valery Roman is correct in her comments, however, she has failed to see the big picture and include the entire definition as it is used. It speaks of the laws of science and arts. They are those principles that have been set in order, which includes the “laws” of nature. When God spoke in Creation and put the cosmos in place, He declared laws and principles to be in place to keep things where they are. We call these the laws of nature. True science recognizes these principles and laws. The law of gravity is one of these great “elements.”
The meaning here includes all laws and principles as we know them in this world. They will all come to an end. While the religous laws of man are included, so are the laws of nature. When God puts His foot down and says it is the end of days, He will suspend His natural and scientific laws for a new heaven and earth.
This can be found in a deeper look into the Greek word. For instance, Parson’s Bible Dictionary says the following about the term, “elements” (G4747):
In its primary sense, as denoting the first principles or constituents of things, it is used in 2 Pet. 3:10: “The elements shall be dissolved.” In a secondary sense it denotes the first principles of any art or science. In this sense it is used in Gal. 4:3, 9; Col. 2:8, 20, where the expressions, “elements of the world,” “week and beggarly elements,” denote that state of religious knowledge existing among the Jews before the coming of Christ, the rudiments of religious teaching. They are “of the world,” because they are made up of types which appeal to the senses. They are “weak,” because insufficient; and “beggarly,” or “poor,” because they are dry and barren, not being accompanied by an outpouring of spiritual gifts and graces, as the gospel is.
Thayer’s Greek Dictionary says:
1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
1b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
1c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
1d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
1d1) i.e. of mathematics, Euclid’s geometry
Notice “1b” and “1c” above, which are included in the definition. Also notice how Parson’s says it “denotes the first principles of any art anbd science.” We can’t just pick and choose a portion of the entire definition that is given to us.
Valery is correct to an extent. But it covers much more than that. Good observation Valery.
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Thank you Adam! I love how you explain things…so, when my futuristic friends tell me the world is going to burn up, how do I answer them?
Valery Roman 562.682.0448 It’s not what you look at, but what you see.
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Hello again everyone! After agreeing with Val and others that “elements” refers to the elements of the law – the law of Moses, I do want to clarify that I also included in that definition that the term can include the elements of the laws of nature and science, which very well could include the cosmos and physical elements of the world. I do believe that, while the (known) world was destroyed by water, the world, as we know it, will come to an end by fire. 2 Peter 3:10 does include “The heavens will disappear with a roar…” and 2 Peter 3:12 says, “That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire.” Furthermore, 2 Peter 3:1-7 speaks of the world being destroyed by fire. I know some will try to equate this with AD 70, but I really believe this is speaking of the end of the world, whether or not it refers to a type and shadow or dual meaning (progressive) of prophecy. I have no problem with the point being made by Val or Chuck Roman, but I just wanted to make clear that while I agree, I also believe in the destruction of the entire cosmos (physical universe) by fire, prior to the creation or replacement of a “new heaven and earth.” God bless.
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The pairing up of the wolf with the Gentiles and the lamb with Israel is what is totally arbitrary here. The animal covenant is mentioned in Job 5:23; Is. 65:25; Ezek. 34:25; Hos. 2:18 in which passages have nothing to do with Israel vs the Gentiles.
Paul confirmed the appearance of the Messiah per Isaiah and thus as the hope of the Gentiles and Paul worded the present hope as something to be yet fulfilled as well (In that day; not: In this day). That hope is still a hope until it is realized when Christ physically returns in His kingdom to reign on earth. We need to be real and what is real is that the kingdom simply is not here unless we would rather pretend otherwise. To pretend such is empty and vain since it fails to face up to reality.
If the kingdom is not physical and earthly as well as spiritual, then scripture says nothing about it. One can not ignore the fulfillment of these prophecies where scripture puts it in order to suit one’s whim, no, scripture is just about everywhere clear that it is fulfilled at the return of Christ. Yes, it will center around the new Jerusalem which is Israel and not the church. (Even though that does not deny access and participation to church members as I believe it will. It is just that new Jerusalem simply no where refers to the church.) The beauty of the premill position is that scripture is allowed to mean what it says, We can not just randomly associate things wherein scripture has no basis for it. When we follow an Augustinian allegorical method, it just appears to be making stuff up as we go along. Scripture should not be so carelessly handled.
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Ross, it was Isaiah who said, “…in that day…” (Isaiah 11), as he was looking forward to a day that had not yet arrived. Paul showed Isaiah’s prophecy to be fulfilled in his day.
By the way, it’s nice to see that you understand “that” as future and “this” as present. The same principle works in the Olivet Discourse too, right? “Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will not pass away until ALL these things take place.” 🙂
You said that “the new Jerusalem…is Israel and not the church.” Huh?
The new Jerusalem is about God tabernacling with His people, dwelling with us, being with us, and being our God (Revelation 21). Paul said this was already true of the church (II Corinthians 6:16). The author of Hebrews said that Christ’s followers had already “come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22). And Paul said that in contrast to the Jerusalem of his time, which was in bondage, the Jerusalem above is free and is the mother of God’s people (Galatians 4:25-26).
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When that New Jerusalem comes down to us, then all those things will be fulfilled! Until then, Maranatha. Romans 15 is a confirmation of the promises and it gives us hope for the future. Until then, Christ lives with us via the Comforter, but then He shall be with us in person for Himself. I believe some things were fulfilled in the first century like Dan 9’s prophecy. I believe the 70th week came right after the 69th with no gap. I believe that generation witnessed their doom in 70AD. But, that is no basis for confusing Israel with the church nor is it a basis to deny Rev 20 or twist it it into something nonsensical or even absurd.
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Here is what we have to understand about the new covenant: it is not the basis for our salvation anymore than was the old covenant. Rather the new covenant is based on the shed blood of Christ, which blood is also the basis of redemption. That is why our salvation by grace does not depend on any covenant, it rather depends on the shed blood.
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Hey everyone,
I haven’t been following the posts here in quite awhile, but I received some comments in my email that led me back here. I just thought I would agree with Adam that “he placed Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, seeing individuals in both groups as equally lost if they were outside of Christ, and having equal access to all the blessings found in the new covenant and in Christ if they looked to Him for salvation.” I just finished my book “Not just Another Book On Revelation” and it is available as a downloadable (ebook) on WhiteWing Direct’s website: http://www.whitewingbooks.com/White-Wing-DIRECT_ep_41.html
In the book, I run a parallel comment area of the Preterists (full). I am a partial-preterist (historicist), but I respect some of the arguments put up by the hyper-preterists. I quote Adam Maarchalk and Sam Storms, and other friends we hear quoted here and on other blogs and books. You might want to look through it, as it is not only a commentary on Revelation (like no other availabe), but it deals with eschatological prophecies in general. I do not come from any eschatological persuasion (in total) that I know of today, as I see most all of them have truths and most all of them have fallacies. The point of the book is to reveal their truths, and expose the fallacies, and put them together to come to what the Bible really says (using solid hermeneutic principles).
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Hi Dr. Burks,
It’s good to hear from you again. Thank you for your newest feedback (and that’s a wonderful point on which to agree). Congratulations on finishing your book. I will plan to check it out and see what you have to say.
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If you take the time to read this, it will demonstrate that there is a proper form to preterism and it is neither full or partial preterism. This article demonstrates that prophecy continues to be fulfilled beyond the “last days,” which ended ca. 70AD. Here it is and I look forward to any feedback…..
Thousands, perhaps even millions, of Bible students have read and pondered over the ominous words “THE BOTTOMLESS PIT” in the several passages shown below: (emphasis and comments added by author)
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the BOTTOMLESS PIT. 2 And he opened the BOTTOMLESS PIT; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the BOTTOMLESS PIT, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (Revelation 9:1)
http://blog.properpreterism.org/2008/03/17/the-abyss.aspx
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Adam, the interesting thing about all the pre-millennial objections to preterism that I read in this blog and others on the site is that none of them ever offer an exegesis of Revelation 20:4-6! They assume by way of a pre-suppositional hermenuetic that the text references an earthly Jerusalem and some kind of strange world were resurrected immortal beings live with mortals. I don’t know of any OT passages that describe such a world do you-? Jesus said to his disciples “you shall sit on 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel. Their reign -there apostolic ministry would seem to me to be the “earthly” nature of throne promises in my opinion. What do you think?
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Hi Adam,
The longer I look at Isaiah 11, the more I tend to believe that this is another example of a type of dual-fulfillment in scripture. I wholeheartedly agree with every single point you have made above concerning the ULTIMATE fulfillment in Isaiah 11 being that of Jew and Gentile dwelling together under the New Covenant. However, this Isaiah 11 prophecy had also been fulfilled for the FIRST time under the post-exilic return for the remnant from “Ephraim” of the Northern kingdom, and those from “Judah” of the Southern kingdom. These had both become united in the land of Israel under the leadership of Ezra, Nehemiah, Joshua the high priest, and Zerubbabel (just as the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah were prophesied to become one in the hand of the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 37:15-28).
The Northern and Southern kingdoms had been violently alienated from each other ever since the days of the divided kingdom under Rehoboam. This alienation is pictured in Isaiah 11 by the “unclean” animals of the Northern kingdom of Israel in contrast with the comparatively “clean” animals of the Southern kingdom of Judah.
In the post-exilic return, after 70 years of Judah experiencing God’s judgment for its idolatry (just as Israel had earlier), the returning exiles of both kingdoms participated in a united revival of sorts under the leadership of Ezra, that “ready scribe” in the laws of God (Ezra 7:6). This man was determined to teach the laws of God (Ezra 7:10) to the people in all the land “beyond the river”, and had been given orders to do so by Artaxerxes in Ezra 7:25-26. This was done, and we have an example of this during the Feast of Tabernacles when Ezra read the law of God to the people from the podium in Nehemiah 8:4, with the Levites causing the people to understand the reading.
The positive results of Ezra’s and the Levites’ teaching is why we have the statement in Isaiah 11:9 that “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea”. In the FIRST fulfillment of Isaiah 11 under the post-exilic return, this spread of the knowledge of the Lord applied to the spiritual revival that took place in the land of Israel and Jerusalem in those days. In the ULTIMATE sense of fulfillment, though, Isaiah 11 applied later on to the growth of the gospel under the New Covenant which united the formerly-alienated Jew and Gentile into “One New Man”.
The reason I pinpoint the post-exilic return as the original, first fulfillment that Isaiah 11 refers to is due to the statement found in Isaiah 11:11. There is says that “IN THAT DAY, the Lord shall set His hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of His People, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, etc…” You have to ask yourself, “Well, if this prophesied gathering of His people is the SECOND TIME it occurred, then which occasion in history was the FIRST TIME God gathered them together as one?” The context itself gives us the answer, in Isaiah 11:16: the SECOND gathering would be “like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt”. This FIRST gathering, during the Exodus from Egypt under Moses would be mirrored the very next time that the Lord gathered His people for the SECOND TIME in the post-exilic return. At that time, all the people of God in every part of the Persian empire were encouraged by the Persian kings’ 4 decrees to return to the land of Israel and set up another temple. (Which 4 decrees were given by Cyrus in 537 BC, Darius in 519 BC, and Artaxerxes in 467 BC and 454 BC, according to Ussher’s “Annals”.)
In this united return of the exiles, Isaiah 11:13 prophesied that “the envy of Ephraim shall depart” and that God would cut off Judah’s adversaries. Under these predicted conditions of peace between the two formerly-divided kingdoms of North and South, “Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.” This is the picture of the “unclean” and “clean” animals peacefully co-existing, and their offspring lying down together, as in Isaiah 11:7. It is the “covenant of peace” that Ezekiel prophesied for the post-exilic return in Ezekiel 37:26. (Incidentally, this everlasting covenant of peace between Judah and Ephraim would finally be broken in AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion “took peace from the earth”, as predicted in Rev. 6:4, when they had “broken the everlasting covenant” – Isaiah 24:5. Open civil war was the result.)
I have heard dispensationalists claim that this “SECOND TIME” God would gather Israel together was fulfilled in 1948 with the establishment of the state of Israel, but that is a total corruption of the prophecy, and does violence to the entire context of Isaiah 11. By projecting this prophecy into the modern age, they totally disregard the episode of the post-exilic return and the fulfilled revival of God’s work “IN THE MIDST OF THE YEARS” (Hab. 3:2). The prophet Habakkuk predicted that this post-exilic return revival would come, and exactly WHEN it would come. Ezra’s weeping prayer in Ezra 9:9 confirms the very year when this revival occurred, and it was the year of Artaxerxes first decree in 467 BC, in the seventh year of the king’s reign (Ezra 7:8).
Here are Ezra’s words in Ezra 9:8-9 which confirm that God had indeed revived His work “IN THE MIDST OF THE YEARS”, according to Habakkuk 3:2 “And now for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and GIVE US A LITTLE REVIVING in our bondage. For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to GIVE US A REVIVING, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.”
As I have said above, this prayer of Ezra’s was made in the year 467 BC. It is no coincidence that this year of 467 BC is EXACTLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MILLENNIUM YEARS, just as Habakkuk 3:2 predicted, that ran from Solomon’s temple foundation being laid in 967 BC up through AD 33, when Christ established the New Covenant in His blood at His ascension on the day of His resurrection. It was that year of AD 33 when He officially became our great high priest, and made Himself the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple made without hands. The Revelation 20 millennium (composed of a physical-temple worship system) expired that very year of AD 33, because its expiration date was timed to END with the First Resurrection, which was that of Christ, the “First-fruits” (I Cor. 15:20, 23), the “First-begotten” (Heb. 1:6), and the “First-born” (Col. 1:15).
The majority of the Jews ended up rejecting the transition from the physical, millennial-temple system over to Christ, (the Living Stone of the True Temple that followed the millennium), and so the physical temple system had to be physically destroyed in AD 70 to get rid of what had become an idol by then. The Revelation 20 millennium was always intended to be a type that foreshadowed Christ, the fulfillment.
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I find this conversation very interesting. I’ve been studying the prophesies and find that many of them seem to be not fulfilled (e.g Isaiah 11:13-15). I’m also not sure that we have historical/biblical documentation on the northern tribes ever uniting with the southern tribes upon return from exile. I don’t think the northern tribes are referred to figuratively in this prophesy, so did they return with the Judeans or not? Are we to expect some other return in the future? Did the post-exilic Judean kingdom occupy/plunder/possess/subdue the various regions as referred to in the scripture? And the sequence in this scripture implies this would happen after the branch of david is in power (Jesus) which would rule out this occurring the post-exilic era before Jesus’ arrival.
We have to make one of 3 conclusions:
1. The old prophets failed the prophet test given in Deuteronomy. As Christians we cannot hold this stance.
2. These prophesies were fulfilled and we have yet to discover the historical evidence for them.
2. Some of these prophesies are yet to be fulfilled even though they seem to be referring to the original post-exilic era…they are really for some future time (the premil view)
3. These prophesies are not to be taken literally and they are all somehow figurately fulfilled by the Jesus and the Church age. (The post mil view)
I may be missing something here. I’m hoping someone can explain what I’m missing.
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