Two days ago Andrew Strom, a well-known minister from New Zealand, created a firestorm with his post, “Replacement?? – Israel & the Church.” I personally agree with about 90% of what he wrote. As expected, there have been many responses, some very emotional. There are nearly 350 comments under that post, as of last count, and they address so many different aspects of this topic (and beyond) that it can make the mind spin. I’m very interested in what some have to say, but quite baffled at what others say. I’d like to get feedback, if possible, regarding one baffling statement that appeared repeatedly in that forum, one which I’ve heard so many times before:
“Israel is God’s chosen people.”
For those who say this and believe it, what does that mean? Does it mean that all citizens of Israel are God’s chosen people? At face value, that’s what it seems they would mean. Somehow, though, I get the impression that people mean Jews only, when they say this. Did you know that there are roughly 1.6 million Arab citizens in Israel? According to this Wikipedia entry, that’s the case. Are they also among God’s chosen people, since they live in Israel?**
Others claim that all ethnic Jews are God’s chosen people, and I also completely disagree with this idea. Scripture teaches that only those who belong to Jesus are God’s chosen people. In I Peter 2:4-10, for example, those who belong to Jesus are chosen to be a royal priesthood, to receive mercy, to be a light in the darkness, etc. This is true of those who belong to Christ. It’s not true for those outside of Christ, even if they happen to be Jewish. For a deeper discussion on this topic, please see this post:
http://kloposmasm.com/2010/09/23/who-are-gods-chosen-people-and-why-are-they-chosen/
However, I’m even more baffled by the claim that the nation of Israel is God’s chosen people. It makes no sense Scripturally, and it doesn’t even make sense politically. What are your thoughts on the claim that “Israel is God’s chosen people”?
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**I believe that some Arab citizens of Israel actually are among God’s chosen people, but only those who belong to Christ. And some of them do – praise God.
Pursuing Truth 
1 Peter is not written to all Christians, only “To the pilgrims of the Dispersion”, i.e., dispersed Jewish Christians. It is no surprise that Peter was addressing them because he was God’s apostle to the circumcision (i.e., Jews). Scripture defines Israel as the chosen or elect nation of God in covenant with God. In the NT times there was a remnant of that covenant nation that made up the company of true believers in their Messiah. As a covenant nation, Israel was defined by its covenant status and not by each individual’s salvation status. The Body of Christ is defined by each individual’s salvation status apart from any covenant since none are made with the church. The status of the covenant nation is that of unrepentant of breaking covenant and failing to keep it. Thus they must now wait for God to properly reconstitute Israel Himself at Christ’s return when He establishes the new covenant with them and restores to them the kingdom of David. Thus the nation today claiming the name of Israel may or may not be constituted of real Israelites and even of those who have that potential but it is meaningless to God. Their claims only have secular significance and none as far as covenant status is concerned and will have no status, once again, until Christ returns to grant such status. Despite their non-status at the moment, it does not remove the fact that God will restore the kingdom to Israel as per the covenant.
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Ross, thank you for responding to my question in this post. So, regarding that question, you believe, as I do, that the nation of Israel is not God’s chosen people.
I’m familiar with your argument that Peter was only writing to Jewish Christians. Scholars seem to have different opinions on this point. Some say that he used a common expression for the scattering of the Jewish believers that came about when Stephen was martyred (Acts 8:1), or the dispersion of Jews in general throughout the Roman empire. Others say that he made a general reference to all believers, regardless of ethnicity, since sanctification, the calling to obedience, and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus is available for all (I Peter 1:1). Some also point out that Peter was addressing non-Jews in I Peter 4:3-4 when he said, “For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.”
If your point is that Peter only saw his statements in I Peter 2:4-10 as applying to Jewish believers, I don’t agree with you. Peter articulated truths in that passage which Paul also communicated to Gentile-majority churches in his epistles. We who belong to Christ are all one in Him, as the New Testament tells us repeatedly, and there is no distinction between Jews and non-Jews.
You say that God does not have a covenant with His church, and that Jesus will establish the new covenant in the future. Again, I completely disagree with you. Jesus established the new covenant “with many for the forgiveness of sins” through His shed blood on the cross (Matthew 26:28, and as predicted in Daniel 9:27). Paul wrote to the majority-Gentile Corinthian church that God “has also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant” (II Corinthians 3:6). Dozens of chapters in the New Testament unveil the realities of this new covenant for us, God’s people.
Israel does not need to be reconstituted. Jesus is true Israel. He is the fulfillment of all that Israel ever was during its days as a type and shadow pointing forward to Christ.
Concerning Jesus’ return, He said He would come in His kingdom before His disciples could pass through all the towns and cities of Israel (Matthew 10:23); that He would come in judgment, in His kingdom, with His angels, and in the glory of His Father before all of His disciples would die (Matthew 16:27-28); and that He would come in great power and glory before the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and before His own generation would pass away (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). He kept His word. His kingdom has been given into the hands of His saints (Daniel 7:18, 21, 27; Matthew 21:43).
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Hi Adam,
Ross, thank you for responding to my question in this post. So, regarding that question, you believe, as I do, that the nation of Israel is not God’s chosen people.
Response: Currently and temporarily: “Lo Ammi.”
I’m familiar with your argument that Peter was only writing to Jewish Christians. Scholars seem to have different opinions on this point. Some say that he used a common expression for the scattering of the Jewish believers that came about when Stephen was martyred (Acts 8:1), or the dispersion of Jews in general throughout the Roman empire. Others say that he made a general reference to all believers, regardless of ethnicity, since sanctification, the calling to obedience, and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus is available for all (I Peter 1:1).
Response: You mean verse 2. Despite the truth that sanctification is available to all, that is no basis for obscuring who it is that Peter actually addresses here in this letter: “the dispersion.” It appears that those “scholars” are willing to run rough shod over Peter’s words in order to ecclesiasticize the entire canon.
Some also point out that Peter was addressing non-Jews in I Peter 4:3-4 when he said, “For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.”
Response: Peter is maintaining a distinction in identity: “you” versus “they” which says that those in the “you” group were doing something strange by choice in following in the behavior of the “they” group. Thus these Jews had made a choice to live in an unholy manner. I would also entertain the idea that this might indicate they were Gentiles in the past but had since been proselytized.
If your point is that Peter only saw his statements in I Peter 2:4-10 as applying to Jewish believers, I don’t agree with you.
Response: Peter who is explicit in addressing “the dispersion” as the apostle to the circumcision is making the application to his audience and no more. The application is made specific to Peter’s intended audience in order to communicate particularly. That is not to say a wider application can not be made, only that Peter certainly does not do so.
Peter articulated truths in that passage which Paul also communicated to Gentile-majority churches in his epistles.
Response: Yes, Peter to the circumcision and Paul to the uncircumcision. Not that either never addressed both Jews and Gentiles, but again, Peter is explicit in addressing the dispersion Jews in this letter.
We who belong to Christ are all one in Him, as the New Testament tells us repeatedly, and there is no distinction between Jews and non-Jews.
Response: This is quite true with respect to our redemption since everyone is saved by grace, but this does not obliterate God’s covenant relationship to Israel. Note also that God did make some kind of distinction when He commissioned one apostle to the uncircumcision and another to the circumcision. Also note that Paul had Timothy circumcised but not Titus; neither would have had to be circumcised if that distinction was absolutely unqualified as you would have it. If there was no distinctions being maintained, why were there many Jewish believers who yet were still being zealous of the Law and then why did Paul take a vow in the temple to satisfy them?
You say that God does not have a covenant with His church, and that Jesus will establish the new covenant in the future. Again, I completely disagree with you. Jesus established the new covenant “with many for the forgiveness of sins” through His shed blood on the cross (Matthew 26:28, and as predicted in Daniel 9:27).
Response: Matthew does not say that. He rather says that “the blood of the covenant is poured out for many.” Daniel sees the covenant being proclaimed to the covenant people. Matthew is recording the fulfillment of that prophecy in which we see Christ preaching it as the basis for the restored kingdom to come. But with Israel’s rejection of the Messiah, God has sidelined the covenant temporarily. There is no application seen for Gentiles here at this point.
Dozens of chapters in the New Testament unveil the realities of this new covenant for us, God’s people.
Response: The NT unveils the wondrous redemptive application of the shed blood of Christ for Gentiles (thus Paul as minister of the new covenant redemptive blessings to the Gentiles) but there is absolutely nothing about a covenant being made with the Gentiles. The Gentiles share in the blessings completely apart from a covenant relationship.
Israel does not need to be reconstituted. Jesus is true Israel. He is the fulfillment of all that Israel ever was during its days as a type and shadow pointing forward to Christ.
Response: Not so! Israel must be reconstituted or else God is a liar and His promises can not be taken seriously. Jesus is Israel in the sense of being its king just as any king is identified interchangeably with his kingdom, but that again does not obliterate the nation, God’s covenant with that nation, nor the fulfillment of all the covenant promises made to Israel including the restoration of the kingdom of David. God will actually keep His word and I can’t believe that a “bait and switch” can possibly be seen as honoring those promises. Any business man that would try to pull a stunt like that usually gets arrested and labeled as a “con” man.
Concerning Jesus’ return, He said He would come in His kingdom before His disciples could pass through all the towns and cities of Israel (Matthew 10:23); that He would come in judgment, in His kingdom, with His angels, and in the glory of His Father before all of His disciples would die (Matthew 16:27-28); and that He would come in great power and glory before the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and before His own generation would pass away (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).
Response: I agree these things will happen at Christ’s return.
He kept His word. His kingdom has been given into the hands of His saints (Daniel 7:18, 21, 27; Matthew 21:43).
Response: I believe He will keep His word but the kingdom is not yet upon this earth or else you would be able to grab the skirt of a Jew who could lead you to the throne of David in Jerusalem…but it is not there yet is it?
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Firstly brothers if you place Jew and Israelite on the same level, you will always falter and misunderstand scripture. Israel is Jacob and Jacob is Israel. Judah and Ephraim are Israel and the sons of Jacob period. Jew/s is something else not belonging to Jacob. Concerning the chosen of god, absolutely, Jacob is the chosen among all nations. Jeremiyah 31:36 puts this beyond question. God also says : Behold the days come,saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” Jer 31:31, Ezek 37:22(parable of two sticks), God says” I will heal their(Jacob’s) backsliding, Iwill love them freely… God will return in due season the remnant of Jacob and they will get back to their land and there shall be no idolatry as is now under Jews and Palestinians. The land will be cleared of Palestinians and Jews to make way for Jacob who is still scattered over many countries. Yes Jacob needs to accept Christ as there is no way to the father. All of Jacob sinner or not will be taken to the desert to be tested and refined as in the days of Moses and only a remnant shall enter Israel the country and live in peace without idolatry(JER 37:23. Afterwards all nations shall be gathered to try and eliminate Jacob living in peace and security Ez 38:8, Joel 3:2. We are currently still in the Gentile era and according to our lord Jesus. Jacob shall be led away captive into all nations and Jerusalem trodden down by the gentiles until their time is over Luke 21:24. Arabs, British empire, (Romans),Jews etc are trampling on Jerusalem until the real Jacob is brought back from captivity. Gentiles (saved through Christ) will cleave to the house of Jacob (saved through Christ) Esaiah 14:1
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Opchefi, God’s chosen people among all nations are those who belong to His Son, Jesus:
You said, “The land will be cleared of Palestinians and Jews to make way for Jacob who is still scattered over many countries.” What!? How do you propose that they be “cleared”? Genocide? Kidnapped and transported? I almost felt ill when reading your comment. And are you saying that God made that statement?
I’m also surprised that you said Jews need to be cleared from the land. I confess that I don’t understand your opening lines about “Jews [being] something else not belonging to Jacob,” but are you saying that “Jacob” is not made up of Jews at all, only Israelites (whatever that means)?
We are not in a Gentile era, as concerns the plans and promises of God. We are in an era where there is no difference at all between Jews and non-Jews:
Jerusalem was only trampled by the Gentiles for 3.5 years (Revelation 11:1-2), and Jesus said that this event (Luke 21:24) would take place before His generation would pass away (Luke 21:32) and before the temple would be destroyed (Luke 21:5-7) – which happened in 70 AD.
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Adam
I have tried to give my real name when posting the initial comment but unfortunately it still posted it as Opchefi. My real name is Tshepo, well that aside
Regarding the chosen
Numbers 23:19 says
” God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
God changes not and anyone claiming god changed is a liar. Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”
Therefore god’s calling of Jacob is without repentance.
The basis of departure is Romans 3:4 “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged
Jeremiah 31:35 reads
” Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36″If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.” 37Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.…
Deut 7:6 and 14:2 reads: Thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations of the earth”
About the future Restoration of Israel before “the day of the lord” god says to Zion(Israel the land) about Jacob/Israel Esaiah 49:15
” Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.” Also the Holy one of Jacob says about Restorations before Jacobs trouble/the day of the lord in Jeremiah 30:7”
For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
God says of his chosen:
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Oh how merciful and gracious, faithful and true is our god upon his chosen, praise be to the holy one of Jacob. If god is merciful and gracious upon Israel so shall the gentiles find refuge in him.
Regarding the Jews
What tribe is Jews, Jacob never named any of his children Jew be it the twelve sons or the daughter. And only god will return the children of Jacob to the land and when he does there shall not be iniquity in the land and there shall be peace. At the time of return only a remnant shall make it the rest of Jacob (the rebels) shall be killed by god in the wilderness. The Jews claim that they are the chosen and the test for any claiming the title is, when Jacob returns to the land he shall live in peace and without inequity. Are the Jews living in peace and righteousness? The answer is obvious and the reason is because they are not the children of Jacob. Jacob shall not enter the land without the purging in the wilderness, NEVER. Did the Jews go through purging/under the rod in the wilderness? NO.
Ezekiel 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Again he says in Ezekiel 37:23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Regarding the gentile era
Of course we are in the gentile era Daniel 2: 39-44 until the kingdom that is not made of hands. The last kingdom before the kingdom where Jesus rules is a kingdom of the Gentile as all others in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Regarding the clearance of Jews and Palestinians
I am really surprised that you see it odd that god can destroy nation for his people. Has god not done it before? Of course he has and will yet again destroy nations for Jacob. When the remnant of Jacob get back to the land it will be desolate with those trampling on it removed, destroyed and wasted.
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
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Your articles are simple, clear and precise!
Its very good that you do this.
Have you read or listened to some teachings of Jonathan Welton?
He is very good, and also teaches a lot of stuff that you do.
His free book is found on raptureless.com
Bless yah!
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Thank you, Erwin. I appreciate your kind words, and I’m glad you stopped by and left a comment. Yes, I’m familiar with Jonathan Welton. I’m subscribed to his blog, and have read his articles, but not his book yet. I’ve enjoyed what he has to say, and his writing style.
Did you have an opinion, by the way, on the claim that “Israel is God’s chosen people”?
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There is a lot of confusion when people discuss the place of Israel in God’s purposes, some thinking of Israel as the present political state, or the country labelled Israel. Neither of those are “biblical” Israel, although biblical prophecy does look towards the return of the people of Israel to the land God promised to them.
I wrote and article addressing one aspect of the identity if Israel here on an old blog:
http://onefiles.blogspot.co.nz/2011/06/refined-not-redefined.html
Unfortunately I’ve been unable to comment on Strom’s site. He banned me after I disagreed with his views on “anointing” and his casual attitude to prophecy.
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Hi Onesimus. There sure is a lot of confusion. On Strom’s site, it’s getting worse. There are now 584 replies to his article on “replacement,” and the discussions are all over the place.
By the way, are you saying there’s a difference between “the present political state” (of Israel) and “the country labelled Israel”? It’s probably a small point, but that’s what it appears you are indicating, so I wanted to check.
We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on the relation of biblical prophecy to any future return of “the people of Israel” to the promised land.
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There’s the political entity with government and there is the territory marked on the map administered by that government – a place that can be visited. Different but related.
As for biblical prophecy and the future return to the promised land – that all depends whether we accept and believe the Bible as truth or not. The OT prophets are full of such promises/prophecies that are so far unfulfilled. Either the return will happen or God is a liar.
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The Bible is true. A person can genuinely believe that, but not agree with your interpretation of those promises/prophecies. I believe they were fulfilled. Many Israelites returned to the land of Israel under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel. Prior to that return, a number of Old Testament prophets predicted a return to the land. Along with many in church history, I don’t believe they predicted a return 2600 or more years beyond their own time, but rather the one that took place 25, 50, 100, or 150 years after they made those predictions. As far as the spiritual renewal that they prophesied along with some of those predictions, I believe the prophets were often allowed to look forward to this present new covenant age.
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Adam, I have interpreted nothing. I just believe what scripture actually says.
When scripture tells me that Israel will be returned to the land God promised from exile among ALL the nations, and they will never again be uprooted from the land; then I believe it.
And THAT has never yet happened throughout history and therefore cannot be associated with the return from exile in Babylon or any other return ot the land.
It is still to happen as promised and prophesied.
The choice is to believe scripture or to re-interpret scripture to fit what we’d prefer to believe.
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Yes the Spiritual renewal of Israel prophesied by the OT prophets refers to New Covenant days – the Spiritual renewal of Israel is a future event fulfilled after they have been returned to the land.
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Two examples from many
‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36)
I will bring back my exiled people Israel;
they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God. (Amos 9)
Plain and simple, without need for re-interpretation to make them mean anything other than what they clearly say, referring to events that have obviously not yet happened and therefore (unless God is a liar) will still be fulfilled.
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Amos 9:11-12 was quoted by James in Acts 15, and said to be fulfilled with the spread of the gospel among the nations. Yet I’ve heard numerous sermons saying that Amos’ prophecy about the restoration of the tabernacle of David is “obviously” not yet fulfilled, and is for the future (which, of course, contradicts James). I see verses 13-15 as being prophetic imagery of this present age for all (and not just some) of God’s people, for we will not be uprooted from our heavenly inheritance – the real land promise that even Abraham looked forward to (see Hebrews 11:8-16), but I’m content to agree to disagree with you on this.
Regarding Ezekiel 36, has God not put a new heart and a new spirit in you? Has God not caused His Spirit to reside in you? Has He not already done the same for followers of Christ who happen to be Jewish? Are we and they not God’s people, and is He not our God? All of these things are true for all of God’s people, and they have been realities for 2000 years. I truly don’t understand the thinking that says these are future, unfulfilled promises for only one ethnic group, in violation of every New Testament text that says we are all one in Christ Jesus, regardless of ethnicity, and heirs of the same promises which all find their “yes” and “amen” in Him.
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Amen to that. People who like interpreting will simply find themselves in serious trouble cos they will miss the signs of the times.
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You really should spend more time in the “Old Testament” and try not to spiritualized away the people mentioned there. It will help you a great deal because it truly couldn’t be clearer that they are chosen and He tells you why, and who (not Ishmael, but Isaac, not Esau, but Jacob) and He also says that He will redeem His own name and reputation by bringing Jews back into the land, that folks say things that besmirch His name when they aren’t there. To be clear, it’s His land and He gave it to them. Begin in Ez 36 to start. It’s supper clear.
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Thank you. I would like to do that (spend more time in the Old Testament). I love the Old Testament, and have studied it a great deal over the years. I also love the New Testament. Who are you saying is chosen?
I’m interested in your feedback to the question I posed in this post:
What are your thoughts on the claim that “Israel is God’s chosen people”? Does this claim express your own view, or do you express your view differently? Thanks.
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i agree with you concerning almost everything except the part where you equate Jews to Jacob. Like u say Jacob is not Esau or Ishmael neither is he Jew. God says through the prophets that the remnant of Israel/Jacob will only return after they have gone through purging/ under the rod and when they enter the land after the rebels are destroyed, there will be peace, safety and righteousness.
Ezekiel 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
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There you go “spiritualising” the reference to “the land”. The context is clear that it is the physical land and the people of Israel that are being referred to and not some spiritualised concept of a “heavenly inheritance”.
As I said, we can choose to accept what scripture says in its context or we can choose to re-interpret it to make it mean something more supportive of what we prefer to believe.
The fact is, whether we like it or not, God chose a particular ethnic people for a special role in His purposes to make Himself known to the rest of mankind and for Him to abandon His promises in relation to them would be in violation of His own word throughout scripture.
IN closing, one of the biggest problems regarding man’s understanding of scripture is his reliance on “texts” – forget “texts” and search the WHOLE text of scripture for understanding. Strong doctrinal cases can be built on “texts” to support almost anything man wants to believe. It is the “texts” that need to be ignored, or re-intepreted that expose the weakness of a doctrine.
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Onesimus, it’s clear to me that God divorced the nation of Israel, yet saved a remnant out of that apostate nation, and is married to the church, the bride of Christ. The land promises for ancient Israel were conditional upon obedience, and in the New Testament there is no continued emphasis whatsoever upon the physical land of Israel as the inheritance of God’s people. Our inheritance is the same “better” and “heavenly” country/city that Abraham and the other patriarchs desired and looked forward to (Hebrews 11:8-16).
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So God is an adulterer according to the teaching of both Jesus and Paul – divorcing and remarrying!
And the following couldn’t be clearer. He will fulful the promise for the sake of HIS Holy Name – not because Israel is deserving.
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
” ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Clear, precise, staight forward, unambigiuous.
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“…for the sake of HIS holy name…”
I agree that this is why God was going to fulfill the promise spoken in Ezekiel 36. We just don’t agree on whether or not He already fulfilled that promise: I say He did, and you say He didn’t.
Regarding this text, I’ve wondered about another thing among those who see only a future fulfillment in this. Most often, those in this camp will say that the Jews are God’s people (i.e. chosen people) and/or that the nation of Israel is God’s chosen people. They will say this in the present tense. Yet this passage says, “you WILL be My people…” If this text is not yet realized, then why is it said that Jews (or Israel) are God’s people now? [This is not even how I understand that verse, but I’m asking this question because I really don’t understand the Christian Zionist/Dispensationalist view(s) on this matter.]
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To find out about the “Chrisitan Zionist/Dispensationalist” viewS on this matter you would have to consult a Christian Zionist or a Dispensationalist.
To get a BIBLICAL view I suggest you search the scriptures and read what it actually says and accept what it actually says without trying to project a preconceived theology into it.
Scripture is very clear and states that Israel will return to the land and will never again be uprooted from it. That has not yet been fulfilled.
Scripture also makes God’s views of divorce and remarriage clear so your idea of God divorcing Israel and taking another for His bride is clearly in error. Or maybe God Himself needs to seek the benefit of forgiveness through Jesus for His adultery ?
Until you choose to allow scripture to be the determining authority for your doctrine you will never understand the Truth God has made clear.
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Do not include Jesus cos he has never said anything Adam is saying. Jesus said he has come for the lost of Israel/Jacob. He also says oh Jerusalem how often have I wanted to gather your children(Jacob) together….
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I could never have said that better. Thank you brother
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If Ezekiel 36 has been fulfilled I must have missed this part fo the fulfillment:
will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
The above is clear reference to Israel (returned to the land) entering the New Covenant, also dscribed in Jeremiah:
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
Thus says the Lord:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.
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Amen again to that,Indeed let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.,
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In the thread, Andrew Strom gives his view of this, very clearly.
“In the end, according to Scripture, the entire remnant of Jews will be saved. They will accept Christ as their true Messiah. And the land of Israel is also to be restored in the last days.
Please do not go to extremes.
Bless you!
Andrew Strom.”
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Thanks, Chuck. I don’t remember if I saw that comment from Andrew or not. Indeed, a remnant of Jews have been saved for the last 2000 years, and a remnant of people from so many other races as well. As you know, I take exception to his line that “the land of Israel is also to be restored in the last days,” not only because I believe the last days are long behind us, but also because no Scripture text predicts a restoration of the land beyond the incarnation of Jesus.
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God says through the prophets that the remnant of Israel/Jacob will only return after they have gone through purging/ under the rod and when they enter the land after the rebels are destroyed, there will be peace, safety and righteousness. Jews have not gone through this and cannot be Jacob.
Ezekiel 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
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REPLY
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Adam
I have tried to give my real name when posting the initial comment but unfortunately it still posted it as Opchefi. My real name is Tshepo, well that aside
Regarding the chosen
Numbers 23:19 says
” God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
God changes not and anyone claiming god changed is a liar. Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”
Therefore god’s calling of Jacob is without repentance.
The basis of departure is Romans 3:4 “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:
“That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged
Jeremiah 31:35 reads
” Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36″If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.” 37Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.…
Deut 7:6 and 14:2 reads: Thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations of the earth”
About the future Restoration of Israel before “the day of the lord” god says to Zion(Israel the land) about Jacob/Israel Esaiah 49:15
” Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.” Also the Holy one of Jacob says about Restorations before Jacobs trouble/the day of the lord in Jeremiah 30:7”
For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
God says of his chosen:
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Oh how merciful and gracious, faithful and true is our god upon his chosen, praise be to the holy one of Jacob. If god is merciful and gracious upon Israel so shall the gentiles find refuge in him.
Regarding the Jews
What tribe is Jews, Jacob never named any of his children Jew be it the twelve sons or the daughter. And only god will return the children of Jacob to the land and when he does there shall not be iniquity in the land and there shall be peace. At the time of return only a remnant shall make it the rest of Jacob (the rebels) shall be killed by god in the wilderness. The Jews claim that they are the chosen and the test for any claiming the title is, when Jacob returns to the land he shall live in peace and without inequity. Are the Jews living in peace and righteousness? The answer is obvious and the reason is because they are not the children of Jacob. Jacob shall not enter the land without the purging in the wilderness, NEVER. Did the Jews go through purging/under the rod in the wilderness? NO.
Ezekiel 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Again he says in Ezekiel 37:23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Regarding the gentile era
Of course we are in the gentile era Daniel 2: 39-44 until the kingdom that is not made of hands. The last kingdom before the kingdom where Jesus rules is a kingdom of the Gentile as all others in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Regarding the clearance of Jews and Palestinians
I am really surprised that you see it odd that god can destroy nation for his people. Has god not done it before? Of course he has and will yet again destroy nations for Jacob. When the remnant of Jacob get back to the land it will be desolate with those trampling on it removed, destroyed and wasted.
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
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