Why I Abandoned Replacement Theology


I once believed in and taught “replacement theology,” but no one ever accused me of it at the time. Since turning away from replacement theology, however, I’ve faced this accusation numerous times.

What is replacement theology? Matt Slick, the president and founder of Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM), says this on the subject:

Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God… [In] replacement theology the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God’s work… Replacement theology is also known as supersessionism, which means that the Christian church has superseded Israel in God’s plan.

John Hagee, the founder of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), said this in his 2006 book, “Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World”:

“Adherents of replacement theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel” (page 72)… “Replacement theology means that Israel failed, and God has replaced Israel with the church” (page165).

Ironically, when I formerly taught replacement theology, my thinking was very much in line with Slick and Hagee. I wasn’t replacing Israel with the church, but I sure was replacing Jesus with the modern nation of Israel. I would have agreed with graphics like this one I saw posted on Facebook by a fellow Christian a few weeks ago:

false interpretation of Genesis 12-3

SOURCE

This illustration epitomizes the replacement theology I’ve left behind. It takes the role belonging to Jesus and assigns it to a political nation whose population generally has nothing to do with Him. The New Testament is especially clear in showing that it’s through salvation in Jesus that the nations are blessed.

Consider the progression of Biblical revelation regarding the promise recorded in Genesis 12:3:

[1] It was first made by God to Abraham alone: “It will be through you [Abraham], that all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

[2] It was repeated again in Genesis 22:18, and this time expanded to include his offspring: “And through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed Me.”

[3] In Acts 3:25-26, the apostle Peter, speaking to a Jewish crowd in Jerusalem, is clear in identifying Abraham’s offspring and the means of blessing for the nations:

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up His servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

It’s Jesus who is Abraham’s offspring, and He blesses the nations, beginning with the proclamation of the gospel to Jews in the first century.

[4] The apostle Paul, in Galatians 3:7-8, declared that Jesus’ followers are Abraham’s offspring too:

Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’”

According to the terms laid out by Matt Slick and John Hagee, the apostles Peter and Paul were guilty of teaching replacement theology. Yet according to Peter and Paul, when it comes to God’s plans, purpose, and promises, Slick and Hagee are seeking to replace Jesus and His church with a geopolitical nation located in the Middle East. It’s highly ironic that there are Christians who are comfortable with the idea of replacing Christ (their Savior) with a mere political nation, but are up in arms with those who allegedly replace Israel with the church.

Galatians 3, incidentally, goes on to make the point even more strongly that all of God’s promises are wrapped up first in Jesus and second in His followers. Paul says this in verse 16:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds,’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed,’ meaning one person, who is Christ.”

Jesus is singularly the recipient of all of God’s promises, and He extends those promises to His followers (verse 29), who are all one in Him regardless of ethnicity, societal status, or gender (verse 28):

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:28-29)

Does Paul leave any room for those who are outside of Christ to be heirs of the promises? No, he doesn’t, not even for Jews who are outside of Christ. Neither did Peter (Acts 3:23), and neither did Jesus (e.g. Matthew 8:10-12Matthew 21:43John 8:31-47). As Paul says in II Corinthians 1:20, all of God’s promises are “yes” and “amen” in Jesus. What are they outside of Jesus? Meaningless and void.

One of my questions for Slick and Hagee is this: If God’s plan, purpose, and promises are waiting for the nation of Israel to carry them out, then did God utterly abandon the world between 70 AD and 1948 when there was no nation of Israel? Or is it not possible that God’s plan, purpose, and promises continued to be carried out by true Israel, i.e., Jesus and His church?

Consider also what Paul said to the Roman church: “A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit…” (Romans 2:28-29). “For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring… This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of Godbut the children of the promise are counted as offspring” (Romans 9:6-8).

The church is Israel, that is, the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). This is only true because Jesus is true Israel, and we who belong to Christ are made one with Him. One more example of each of these points will suffice. First we will look at how Matthew takes what was once said about the nation of Israel, and applies it to Jesus. Then, finally, we will look at how Peter takes what was once said of the nation of Israel, and applies it to the church.

[1] In Exodus 4:22, God instructs Moses to say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My firstborn son, and I say to you, “Let My son go that he may serve Me.”’” Then in Hosea 11:1-2 we read, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols.” Who is Israel in these Old Testament texts? Clearly it’s that ancient nation, known as Israel, which was finally destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

Yet look at how Matthew treats this same statement. To set the background, an angel has warned Joseph, the father of Jesus, to flee to Egypt with his family, because Herod would seek to destroy Jesus: “And he [Joseph] rose and took the child [Jesus] and His mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called My son’” (Matthew 2:14-15).

Only 40 verses into the New Testament, Matthew declares, by strong implication, that Jesus is true Israel.

[2] Compare what Moses spoke to “the people of Israel” (Exodus 19:3) to what Peter said was true of the church. It’s impossible to miss the parallel language, and I have letter-coded the parallels (A, B, and C):

To ancient national Israel: “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be [A] MY TREASURED POSSESSION among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to Me [B] A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS and a [C] HOLY NATION…” (Exodus 19:5-6).

To the church: “But you are a chosen race[B] A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a [C] HOLY NATION, a people [A] FOR HIS OWN POSSESSIONthat you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people…” (I Peter 2:9-10).

Peter leaves no doubt that Christ’s followers are chosen for the same purpose for which the nation of Israel was once chosen.

I abandoned replacement theology because Jesus is irreplaceable, and I love His church.

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I first published this article on Hubpages on February 10, 2013.

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153 thoughts on “Why I Abandoned Replacement Theology

  1. ii. Paul quotes New Covenant passages in Romans 11:27 to show that the nation Israel will be saved (see Rom. 11:26). Thus, even after the church began Paul sees Israel as still related to the New Covenant.

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    • Bernadine, when I saw your comment I had a feeling that you had copied and pasted it from someone else without giving that person credit. A simple Google search proved my feeling to be correct. Michael Vlach wrote those lines in this article:

      http://theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/supersessionism/327-12-reasons-why-supersessionism-replacement-theology-is-not-a-biblical-doctrine

      Please don’t plagiarize the writing of others. If you have any personal thoughts of your own, however, they are welcome.

      By the way, not everyone, myself included, agrees that Paul was referring to the political nation of Israel in Romans 11:26.

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    • How is saving a last generation of Israel a fulfillment of prophecy? I call this straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel! You need to ask yourself why you want to replace Christ with a Zionist government that has persecuted the Palestinians–how is a government that has rejected justice “an apple of God’s eye? By their works you shall know them. Modern Israel still rejects Jesus our savior, nothing has changed.

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      • Just for the record thought that the article was great. My comments are directed at some of the replies that I read. Just for clarification.

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      • I will just leave one “little” comment down here and those who are meant to read it will. The completely false assumption of most of people who love and feel that their point of view is upheld by this blog, is that “those other people” believe that the current state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. That state and that regathering is only a preliminary, part of God’s plan. When on the last great day, the body of Christ is transformed into their individual glorified bodies, the nation of Israel (and God is big enough to know who they are) sees Him whom they pierced and experience a national, repentance, turning and cleansing. (The same as you and I experienced on an individual level.) We are individual down payments of what the Holy Spirit is going to do on a national level. Then and only then are they a fulfillment a prophecy, then and only then does the 1,000 year reign of God on the throne of David on Zion in Jerusalem begin. Then and only then is the nation walking in all the “New Covenant” promises made in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. So, quit being blinded by the current state of Israel, I am not.

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    • It all depends on what Israel means according to the word of God. Paul said that not all Israel was Israel in Ro 9:6-8. Verse 8 clarifies that the Israel of the flesh is not the people of God.

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  2. Good word Adam! I concur with your thinking here…. and I especially like this line: “I abandoned replacement theology because Jesus is irreplaceable”.
    “Replacement theology” is a strawman argument people use to discredit another’s beliefs. But if you want to get biblically technical both Paul and Jesus taught replacement!

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    • Thanks, Truthspeaker! I agree that it’s a strawman argument, and one often used in an attempt to intimidate others into silence. The irony is that Jesus is the One who gets replaced, when the nation of Israel is made the center of Bible prophecy instead of Him.

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      • Replacement theology breeds antisemitism ..The Jews are being brought back to the land that God promised them is nothing short of Biblical prophecy being fulfilled…it’s understand Revelation without knowing that the Jews first had to be placed back in the land of Israel.God promised that .in the latter days I will bring MY people back from the natons back to the land that I have given them…God’s Promise in the End of Time, return the Jews to the very Homeland that they were driven
        out of nearly 2000 years ago.

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      • Hi Vince. Did you read this article on which you commented? My personal definition of “replacement theology” is theology that replaces Jesus and His church with a single race of people and/or a secular nation in the Middle East, when it comes to the plans and purposes of God. All of God’s promises are wrapped up in Jesus, and Jews who belong to Jesus are among God’s chosen people and inherit God’s promises. Jews who do not belong to Jesus are not part of God’s chosen people and do not inherit or receive His promises.

        When it comes to antisemitism, I’ve seen a lot of it among Christian Zionists and dispensationalists, especially recently… and it’s directed toward Palestinians, a Semitic people.

        Which Scriptures do you believe promise Jews a return to the land of Israel in the latter days? And which Scripture(s) do you believe speak of an “End of Time”? Thanks.

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      • Seriously, Adam?

        The Palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. They teach their sons to blow themselves up, killing as many people as they can so they can spend eternity enjoying their prophesied wine and women. These are the people that would gladly put a dull knife to your throat and make you denounce Christ or have your head chopped off. They are of one mind with all those who are currently wiping out all of Christianity from the entire Middle East.

        How can you NOT be anti that?

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      • Hi Steve. Yes, seriously. All I said concerning Palestinians is that I’ve seen plenty of anti-semitism (ungodly, unChristlike, nasty remarks, even from professing Christians) directed toward Palestinians, especially recently. I said and hinted nothing about supporting suicide bombings and persecution against Christians.

        I did hear about *some* Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11. I’m also aware that certain Israelis were said to be dancing on American streets that day as well, and that Benjamin Netanyahu is quoted as saying that what happened on 9/11 was good for Israel:

        http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1&singlePage=true (“dancing Israelis”)
        http://www.bollyn.com/five-dancing-israelis/
        http://americanfreepress.net/?p=693 (police officer interviewed about dancing Israelis)
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel-1.244044

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      • You heard about “*some*” Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11?! And you compare this to a report that FIVE Israelies MIGHT (or might NOT) have danced on American streets?!

        And you speak of Netanyahu’s statement that 9/11 was good for Israel as if it compares to the Palestinian view of 9/11?!

        There is no DOUBT there were many, many Palestinians celebrating the news of 9/11, nor is there any doubt WHAT they were celebrating. It is the same as large portions of the rest of the Muslim world – they took pleasure in the murder of Americans as the murder of their enemies. Significant percentages of the Muslim world agreed with the attack, and many of those who technically didn’t agree with the act nevertheless were sympathetic with the the 9/11 hijackers.

        How did Netanyahu see it as a good thing for Israel? Because now America had first hand knowledge of the terror of Islamic jihad, and this would hopefully awaken the world to the evil that is Islamic jihad, to confront this worldwide evil. Waking up to and confronting a great evil is a good thing for the world. Sadly, many people still haven’t woken up, thinking Islam is a religion of peace, or those who would suggest some equivalence between the actions of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

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      • Steve, I’m familiar with Islam and Muslims, having lived in a Muslim country, Malaysia, for nearly six years (2001-2007). I’m also aware of the more extreme teachings in the Qur’an that are taken seriously by some. I also know that I had/have many dear Muslim friends from Malaysia, including families who showed me incredible hospitality despite knowing that I am a follower of Christ and an American. I saw some become followers of Jesus there.

        I happen to think that the way America, in particular, has “confronted jihad” is terrible. Besides false pretenses for war, killing lots of civilians, torturing others, and drone bombing various nations, we’ve also apparently funded jihad in different places (for example, Syria) with American taxpayer dollars. It’s a mess.

        I agree that there is no equivalence between the actions of Palestinians and Israel (i.e. their government). While I will never condone launching rockets at people or suicide bombings, there is no equivalence because it’s Israel’s government that has been systematically carrying out ethnic cleansing for several decades now, backed by funding and other support from the world’s biggest superpower. And so many evangelical Christians have supported it unconditionally as well.

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      • Adam, what would you have Israel do?

        The Apostle Paul wrote, “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” Paul recognizes that it takes two to make for peace, and it is sometimes impossible to be at peace because the other party will not allow it.

        How do the Israelis compromise with those who are bent on their annihilation? It was impossible for Ishmael and Isaac to coexist in Abraham’s camp. It was impossible for Israel and the Philistines to peacefully coexist. And the harsh reality is, it is impossible for the Israelis and the Palestinians to peacefully coexist.

        They will always be at war with each other until one completely destroys the other, or until Jesus returns. Believing they can coexist together in peace is as naive as Bush thinking democracy would bring peace and religious tolerance to Iraq. Such naivete only increases the death toll and drags out the inevitable.

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      • I have to respond to this nonsensical article. Its impossible to replace Israel with the Church. The Church is not of this world. It has no specific coordinates. Israel is of this world and certainly can’t be moved elsewhere. Do you know God promised a specific piece of land to Abraham instead of just Egypt? Israel was special to God even before Abraham. God will not just give the land away forever.
        Christian Zionists never say Israel saves anyone at all. -_- There seems to be a big disagreement on what Israel is. Is a nation/land or is it a group of people/organization?
        If Israel was just a group of people/organization God would never have promised any land to Abraham in the first place.
        Israel is never made the center of bible prophecy. It just makes for an easy clock. Christ will return, replace Jerusalem and rule from the Temple Mount one day. Read Revelations.
        I should probably explain a few things about chosen and saved as well.
        It helps me sort my thoughts to just list things.
        1)All people are obligated by God to worship Christ. In the sense they need to be saved, I mean the other choice is hell so ya…
        2) Saved=/=chosen. Christians are those who accept Christs offer of salvation and Gods chosen are people God picks regardless of personal opinion. Think Jonah and the great fish.
        Read Zechariah. http://www.matthewmcgee.org/israel.html
        http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1064.html
        Great tribulation will affect the world and what’s left in Israel will praise Jesus.
        Zechariah 12:10 the people of Israel will be shown the truth.

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      • Vince (@vinmano) God’s promises to Israel are most certainly true as God does not break a promise. The problem is that you still believe that “Israel” is that nation in the middle east. In regards to Bible prophecy, the promises were made to Christ, not to the descendants of Abraham.

        Galatians 3:16
        The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

        Christ is Israel.

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      • Wasn’t the scene in Acts 1:6 a beautiful opportunity for Jesus to clear this whole thing up and say, “Listen guys, I am Israel, the kingdom is now.” But once again, He totally blew it, and muddied the waters with His wishy-washy reply. Why, oh Why couldn’t He have just said what Vincent said, “I am Israel, game over.” My guess is because there is a final definite, literal fulfillment of many covenant promises to a people and a land. Go and read Ezekiel 36 from verse 1 all the way to verse 38 without, cherry-picking a verse here or there and tell me how that fits in to your theology. I will be waiting.

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      • Chuck, if time allows, I hope you’ll be able to take a look at what Don K. Preston has to say about Acts 1:6 in the article I posted a couple days ago, “Book of Acts: The Hope of Israel is Fulfilled (Part 1).”

        The kingdom was the heart and core of God’s promises to Israel (2 Samuel 7:13-14). It was the focus of the prophets of Israel (Isaiah 2-4; Ezekiel 37, etc.). Thus, Acts 1:4 “set the tone” for the rest of the book. The kingdom message is continued in Acts 8, 14, 19, 20, and 28 as well. This makes it clear that Luke never abandons the subject. Acts is about the hope of Israel. While most commentators claim that the disciples still misunderstood Jesus and the kingdom, this is patently false. Jesus had opened the minds of His disciples to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:25-27). Thus, the disciples were simply asking about the time of the fulfillment of what Jesus had been instructing them about. Jesus did not chide the disciples for their “ignorance” or failure to understand. Instead, He told them to “go into the city and wait” for the promise of the Spirit. The promise of the Spirit was itself an OT promise to Israel and for Israel, to raise her from the dead, restore her to God’s presence, and result in the offer of salvation to the nations (Isaiah 32;49; Ezekiel 37; Joel 2-3).

        …Since the outpouring of the Spirit and the establishment of the kingdom are inseparably connected, this tells us that the restoration of Israel was truly near. It cannot be imagined that the disciples divorced the promise of the imminent reception of the Spirit from the kingdom promises.

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      • Chuck, I don’t know if Jesus specifically ever said “I am Israel” but it’s possible it just wasn’t recorded in our Bible. Paul and Matthew however both make it clear that Jesus is Israel.

        Matthew when he clarifies the prophecy of Hosea 11:1

        When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son

        Matthew 2:15
        and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

        And Paul in Galatians 3:16 when he clarifies the promises to Abraham.

        Genesis 3:8
        And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

        Galatians 3:8
        Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

        Also, Jesus did say that the kingdom is now.

        Luke 11:20
        But if I drive out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

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      • Adam   a comment for your consideration   as we have been grafted into– what have we been grafted into? do we not constitute the one new man? do we now constitute the continuation of the chosen people do we not live under the renewed covenant so neither the term church nor the synagogue jewish people would be of relevance would they both exist as does other religions and peoples so the restoration of the historical jewish peoples as a temple, nationalistic peoples would be completely outside of the mind of God, and as any peoples say such as the north American Indians they simply move forward at their collective discretion   respectifully

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      • Hi wbryant11,

        Yes, all of God’s people, regardless of race, are the one new man in Christ and God’s chosen people. I don’t believe, however, that the term “church” has become irrelevant, and I also don’t believe that the covenant was “renewed.” Rather the old covenant became obsolete and vanished, and God created a new covenant (e.g. Hebrews 8:6-13).

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      • Chuck, I read Ezekiel 36 as you requested and I can totally see why you are confused. It sounds like the prophecy is regarding a physical piece of land on the earth, but in fact the promised land is a heavenly land.

        Notice first of all in Ezekiel 36 that Israel will be restored to the land on the day they are cleansed. This can only happen when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, when the mortal is clothed with immortality and when the corruptible becomes incorruptible.

        See here, how even Abraham was looking for a heavenly land, not an earthly land.

        Acts 7:3-5
        [speaking of the promised land] And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.”

        Remember too that “his seed” is Jesus Christ, as I showed in my previous comment. So the land was promised to Jesus, not to the physical descendants of Abraham or Isaac.

        Notice here especially the parts I emphasized with stars **

        Hebrews 11:8-16
        “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For **he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God**….

        These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were **strangers and pilgrims on the earth**.

        For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now** they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly**: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God:** for he hath prepared for them a city**.”

        It was always a heavenly land and city that was promised to Abraham and his seed, Jesus Christ. It is the heavenly Jerusalem we see in Revelation 21, which is given to Israel (all those who are in Christ) when they are cleansed of sin at the transformation/resurrection on the last day.

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      • Thank you for reading Ezekiel 36. As you noted anyone just reading the words would see it as speaking of a land on the earth. I would say that God can cleanse a nation as He promised and they can then dwell in the land. God cleansed us as individuals and He can cleanse a nation. God can fulfill promises to a physical land and people AND still fulfill promises of a heavenly Jerusalem. One does not eliminate the other, in my opinion. Have a good day.

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    • Chuck, in reply to your May 3rd 2015 comment,

      quote:

      “When on the last great day, the body of Christ is transformed into their individual glorified bodies, the nation of Israel (and God is big enough to know who they are) sees Him whom they pierced and experience a national, repentance, turning and cleansing. (The same as you and I experienced on an individual level.)

      You are omitting faith. You and I “believed in him whom we have not seen”….but you are saying Israel (or rather that part of Israel which is Jewish) will receive salvation without being required to have this saving faith PRIOR to Jesus’ return, but will only come to Jesus on “seeing him”.

      Again, this is attempting to point to two paths to salvation…which is another Gospel, which is “no Gospel at all!”.

      The only Jews (of the flesh) who will share in salvation, are those who will come to Christ NOW (prior to his return) as all others have.

      John is clear in stating in his gospel that the scripture “They shall look on him whom they pierced”, was fulfilled at Calvary.

      See John 19: 31-37 ——in particular, 36 and 37 – “For these things happened so that the Scripture would be fulfilled: Not one of His bones will be broken. Also, another Scripture says: They will look at the One they pierced”

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      • Based on your reasoning the 12 apostles did not have faith and entered into the kingdom through “another gospel”, and also the “500” who saw Jesus between His resurrection and Pentecost. The fact is there is “seeing” and then there is “seeing with faith”. The mocking of the Jewish leaders who saw Jesus on the cross shows that difference also. But on the last great day, the day of the Lord, their seeing is with faith.
        Here is the other way that we differ. I believe that prophecy can have a fulfillment in more than one way. Example “out of Egypt I have called My son” is applied to Jesus, but in context the very next verse is talking about “them” which clearly indicates a “company” not one person. So, to be true to scripture we must acknowledge that the prophecy is “big enough” to contain both Christ and the Jewish nation, who are often referred to as God’s son (like it or not). The Zechariah 12:10 passage did have a partial fulfillment when a small number of Jewish people viewed Jesus pierced on the cross, but that obviously falls short of the context of Zechariah 12 which is the “last great day”. PJ, don’t tell me that you cannot see the proper context of Zechariah 12 and acknowledge that the fulfillment in 30AD was partial. And since my “weekend” is over and I must go back to life, I will add one more comment here. Some have said “the only scriptures that point to a Jewish return to the land are in the O.T.” SERIOUSLY, what scriptures do you think Paul, Peter, James and John and Jude were referencing? What scriptures were they looking to see fulfilled. The NT was put together much later, the Berean’s were searching the OT scriptures and so should we, instead of ‘writing them off’ because specific land promises and specific people promises make us uncomfortable and knock our preconceived ideas out of the water. Psalm 2:6 “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.” Not just any King, not just any hill!

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      • Sorry Chuck, this is the closest to your reply i can get 🙂

        Chuck the bottom line is you and i will never agree. The Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the errors of dispensationalism some years back, so arguing points with you is not going to get you or I anywhere and it doesn’t edify the body.

        I’m sorry you do not see that all who come to Christ now, (and all who receive the promises) come (and receive) in the same way: by faith alone. You find this spelled out clearly in almost every single letter in the new testament;

        For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed–a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” romans 1:17

        Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. romans 2:16

        What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; romans 9:30

        Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. philip. 3:9

        And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. hebrews 11:16

        …5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. hebrews 11:5-7

        (And I only pointed out just a few)

        To attempt to say there will come a time when seeing will replace faith (for a certain people) undermines the entire message of the Gospel.

        God bless you in your search for the truth Chuck….

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    • I would word it differently by saying that the Lord Jesus who rules and reigns forever and ever taught Paul that His eternal plan was always to have a people that would be indwelled by His Spirit, regardless of their nationality, race, language, customs, etc.

      The triump of Christ over the devil, sin, and death consists of having conquered them all by Himself in order to reconcile us back to the eternal plan of the Father (2Cor 5:19).

      That was the plan from the very beginning, (Gen 3:15) and even from before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8b)

      NKJ 2 Ti. 1:9-10 “Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

      NKJ Titus 1:1-3 “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.”

      Therefore the idea of RT is then is falsely rooted in the understanding that somehow God failed with Israel in accomplishing His purposes with them and thus He reacted by raising up the church in order to replace “the mistake.”

      The idea is ludicrous. The plan of the ages was always the church. As for Israel, they were called out from within the nation in order to be part of the kingdom of God. Those who believed became automatically chosen in Christ.

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    • Thank you, PJ! And thank you for re-posting this article on your site. I hope that it’s helpful to others in various ways, including being further equipped when challenged or confronted by the claims of Christian Zionism.

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  3. I am not sure how you can say that the church is the continuation of spiritual Israel when Paul says this (NKJV) Rom 11:25-28

    25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”
    28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

    This whole chapter is about God giving us gentiles the opportunity to come to God through Jesus Christ. God has not abandoned Israel, Israel abandoned God. But because of who God is and His faithfulness, He will bring them to the point where they will accept there Messiah as it is said in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

    anyway I know you probably have heard this before, and I can see that you have the focus on the One that gives eternal life. As time goes on Gods plan for Israel will become even more evident.

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    • Jeremy, thanks for your comment. Yes, I have heard your reasoning before, but that’s OK. It’s good for us all to continue applying critical thinking to this subject. I outlined in my post above why I believe the New Testament shows that Jesus is Israel, that He extends this status to His followers who belong to Him through faith, and that Jesus and His followers are heirs of the promises made to Abraham. Do you agree that the New Testament shows this?

      I imagine that you and I have different understandings of Romans 11:25-28, which is admittedly not the easiest passage to comprehend. I’ll summarize my understanding of this passage briefly:

      1. I believe that the blindness (some versions say “hardening”) that was to rest upon Israel in part was limited to Jesus’ own generation. It lines up with Jesus’ repeated declaration in the gospels that He lived in a wicked, evil, vile generation that was ripe for judgment. Isaiah, as one example, spoke of a similar blindness being upon Israel in his day, just prior to judgment.
      2. I don’t believe, as many do, that “the fullness of the Gentiles” had to do with the spiritual salvation of Gentiles, which will allegedly come to an end one day, leading up to a short period when only Jews will be saved. I believe this was a reference to the domination of Israel by Gentile nations, as shown in Daniel’s visions to cover the period of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. Mike Blume has done an excellent job showing how Romans 11:25 is parallel to Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2, where it is seen that “the times of the Gentiles” would end with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and that Jerusalem would be tread underfoot for 3.5 years (42 months) prior to that destruction (a judgment that was historically carried out by the Romans in 67-70 AD). Here’s Mike’s article: http://mikeblume.com/timesgen.htm
      3. I won’t go too deep here into the phrase, “all Israel will be saved,” but Paul quoted from isaiah 59:20-21, and I believe this was fulfilled in Christ’s first coming through His work on the cross. He is the Deliverer. He came from Zion. He established a covenant (the new covenant) that takes away sin and turns away ungodliness. The new covenant was established in the last days (the final generation) of the old covenant age (see Hebrews 8:13), and it stood alone after the old covenant age (and system) came to an end with the destruction of the temple and God’s judgment upon apostate Judaism in 70 AD.

      I do believe that God abandoned and divorced the nation of Israel, while saving a remnant out of it. According to Galatians 4:21-31, the (then) present city of Jerusalem corresponded to the slave woman and the old covenant given at Mount Sinai, and was to be cast out and never allowed to share in the inheritance given to the free woman’s son, those who are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. Jesus said much the same thing in His parable of the tenants (see Matthew 21:43): the kingdom of God would be taken from the religious leadership of Israel, and given to a fruit-bearing people (the bride of Christ). I believe the book of Revelation makes the same case. The harlot, also known as Babylon the Great and “the great city” (earlier identified in Revelation 11:8 as “the city where our Lord was crucified”), was to be judged for shedding the blood of the saints, prophets, and apostles (see Revelation 16:4-6, 17:4-6, 18:20, 18:24; and Matthew 23:29-37). This harlot was then to be replaced by the bride of Christ. A study of Galatians 4, Hebrews 12, and Revelation together is truly fascinating: two women, two covenants, two Jerusalems. One is cast away; the other remains.

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      • Adam, I agree critically thinking and rightly dividing the Word of God is what all Christians are called to do. Your comment “New Testament shows that Jesus is Israel” is something I would have to disagree with. If this was the belief of Paul, Peter and the others they would have said as much, but instead Paul made a distinction between the part of Israel that had rejected God, the remnant of Israel and the gentiles coming to know the grace of God.
        I can understand what you are saying concerning the above statements, however it requires one to use allegory first in stead of taking the text to mean what it says first. Anyway these are all things that have been said time and time again and rehashing old arguments only creates frustration for all parties. I will agree with you that we are not to idolize Israel(or anything for that matter including America), but we should recognize that the Jewish people are a chosen people(corporately not individually) of God and this can be seen by how they are treated by the world. For the worldly will always hate what God does. Israel will saved by the same plan that God saved us by, namely by faith in the messiah Jesus the only begotten son of God.
        Ultimately we all must be constantly evaluating whether we are fitting God’s Word to our beliefs or if we are fitting our beliefs to God’s Word. I am trying with all I am ensure that I am the one being changed by God’s Word not the meaning of God’s Word being changed to fit me. Truth is what sets us free and this truth is only given by God and it can be found in His revealed Word.

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      • Ultimately we all must be constantly evaluating whether we are fitting God’s Word to our beliefs or if we are fitting our beliefs to God’s Word.

        Amen to that statement, Jeremy.

        I’m not sure what you believe I’ve allegorized, but you are free to disagree with anything I’ve written above. I also can’t agree with you that “the Jewish people are a chosen people of God.” I don’t believe they are inferior to others, but neither do I believe they are superior. The following Scriptures, among others, don’t allow me to believe as you do on this matter:

        For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on Him” (Romans 10:12).

        There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:28-29)

        “…it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring” (Romans 9:8).

        When you say that “Israel will be saved” in the future, do you mean: [1] The entire nation of Israel, including Palestinians and all expatriates living there [2] Jewish citizens of Israel only [3] Jewish people all over the world, inside and outside of the nation of Israel [4] Something else?

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      • Every single one of your posts interprets everything so strangely.
        1) I think most of the world has been blind to a lot of things. The crusades would never have happened the way they did if Christians knew of the mercy of Christ. Christians, Jews Muslims ect… Humanity in general are blind.
        2) Apparently you’ve heard things I never have. The fullness of the gentiles has been the last two thousand years. I’ve heard that once that period is over only Jews can be saved.
        0_0 You believe end time prophecy has already taken place?! You do realize Daniel was talking about end times right? There’s no way it could mean Rome!
        3) The old priest system was indeed done away with. But that wasn’t the covenant God made with Abraham. That covenant is still in effect. Only recently has God fulfilled the promise that in the end days God would restore them to their land not because of them but for his name sake. 144,000 witnesses are going to picked from the Jewish people to proclaim Christ.
        4) The land itself is holy to God. Mt. Moriah/Temple Mount is where Jesus will appear in the second coming. Revelation isn’t allegory at all. Revelation 21 1-27. That’s going to be a physical city.
        5) What do you think of the land of Israel in the old testament? Would just any land do? Why did God specifically pick that one particular? The geographic land of Israel is special to God and God will continue to reveal himself through the land. Your replacement theology really changes what Israel is. In the old testament it refereed to both a people and a place. When the people sinned the land suffered for it… The promised land has been and always will be special in Gods plans.
        http://biblehub.com/zechariah/8-2.htm
        Zechariah 8:13. That certainly can’t apply to the Church and I certainly don’t want it too. The Church is good with God…
        6) The church has replaced Israel as a shining light on the hill. The Church has taken a few roles from Israel, not all of them though. Only the positive ones. Israel will fulfill all its duties just like Jeremiah was forced to.
        7) You claim Israel elsewhere that Israel “ethnically cleansing” but that’s just not true. You shouldn’t lie about others just because you dislike them.
        8) You do understand Paul made distinctions in the service of men and women right? Well there’s a “distinction” between Jew and gentile. To put in bluntly a dollar of dirt and a dollars worth of clay.(I really struggled with this example). Both are almost the same except they serve slightly different purposes. Equal worth.
        9) You misunderstand the Israel being saved part. God will bring Israel into tribulation that makes Israel become a Christian nation. Those that are left shall be saved. Only Christ can save… Read my other posts as well.

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    • Hi Sam. Thanks for stopping by. Did you write that article at “Let Us Reason,” or did you just want to recommend it? I have to say that I disagree with most of its content. I also found it hard to read, and even very confusing in places, mostly because of the grammar and sentence structure.

      I don’t plan to take the time to analyze the entire article here, but one point really caught my eye:

      The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ.

      The article goes on to speak of “Israel the nation,” so as far as I can tell the author defines “Israel” as the modern nation of Israel located in the Middle East. That being the case, it’s apparent that the author believes that each and every resident (or at least citizen) of the nation of Israel today is a member of the body of Christ, whether or not that person trusts in Jesus for salvation.

      How can a person who doesn’t belong to Jesus be a member of His body? How can the body of Christ include those who reject Christ, which is surely the case for most people who live in Israel? Where does the New Testament teach that the body of Christ is not the same as the church, and that the church is only a part of the body of Christ? I’ve seen this same teaching being promoted on The Elijah List (led by Steve Schultz), in their advertisements for planting olive trees in Israel.

      The article also says, toward the end, that God has not abandoned Israel, and that this is proven because God “actually gave them back their land and STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD.” Who is “them”? God gathered Israel from all over the world? What does that even mean? How was “Israel” scattered all over the world? If “Israel” now means “the nation of Israel,” then what did “Israel” mean before there was again a nation called Israel beginning in 1948?

      I don’t happen to believe that the modern nation of Israel has anything to do with Bible prophecy, but, for those who do believe this, are Jews, Palestinians, and expatriates alike all considered to be part of “Israel”? If not, why not?

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      • Israel is not the body of Christ. -_- Only replacement theologians think the body of Christ equals Israel. Body of Christ equals Church. Israel=/=Church. Israel=/=Body of Christ.
        I believe Jews go to hell but I believe Israel has been created by the will of God. Does that mean I think Israel is godly? No, read how Israel treats the two end time witnesses to Christ!
        Question, do you consider yourself more “pro Palestinian” than “pro Israeli”?

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      • There is national Israel (since 1948), according to the flesh. Then there is the Israel of God, according to the Spirit. One of these is the Church, but the other is not. One of these is the people of God (regardless of ethnicity), but the first one is not (though members of the body of Christ do make up a minority of national Israel’s population). I’m glad to hear that you don’t believe national Israel is godly.

        By God’s grace, I’m both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli. I don’t know for sure what’s behind your question on this, but I’m not interested in taking the bait.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. No, Adam, I did not write the article. Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason wrote it. I recommended it as a help, as I thought he did a very good job in explaining why Israel is not the Church.
    How long has it been since you abandoned Replacement Theology?
    Since you mentioned you had not “analyzed the entire article”, perhaps you were a bit hasty in your decision on it? I am sorry you were not ministered to by the Lord as I was

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    • Sam, I did read the entire “Let Us Reason” article before I replied to you the first time. I just meant I didn’t plan to analyze the whole thing here on this blog.

      It’s been about six or seven years since I abandoned replacement theology, which I’ve defined as [1] taking the role that belongs to Jesus and assigning it to the nation of Israel, or [2] replacing Jesus and His church with the nation of Israel when it comes to God’s plans, purpose, and promises.

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      • No one thinks people are saved by Israel.
        Israel and the Church have very different roles to play. Technically all nations have a role to play. The Church isn’t of this world while Israel is…
        Question, when the bible says Jerusalem shall be divided in end times what part of the Church is that? Why do so many in the Church hate the the two witnesses? I could go and on… Its impossible to be a part of the Church and be against God.

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      • Jesus is true Israel, and His followers are the Israel of God (e.g. Galatians 6:16). National Israel is simply one nation among many, and it’s no more and no less special than the other 200 + nations on this planet. From 70 AD to 1948 (1,878 years) there was no national Israel. God’s people are a remnant within national Israel just like we are a remnant within every other nation on this planet. All of God’s plans and purposes are wrapped up in His Son, Jesus.

        Which Scripture passage(s) are you referring to in your question about Jerusalem being divided?

        I have no idea what you’re talking about when you speak of people in the Church hating the two witnesses. I’ve never heard this before. I’m also not sure who you believe the two witnesses were, are, or will be.

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      • Zechariah 14 hasn’t happened yet.
        Jesus role is saving humanity while Israels role is to be an instrument of God like a microphone. I can’t think of a great example. Israel will go through a lot of stuff.
        No Zionist thinks Jews are saved by being Jews. I know Jews need Christ. Israel is like a clock while Christ is the end goal. Revelation has Christ second coming on Mount Zion aka Temple Mount. Which is more important, a runway or the plane? That sort of works.
        http://biblehub.com/revelation/11-3.htm
        http://stevenmcollins.com/html/two_witnesses.html
        They preach in Israel.
        2 Thess. 2:4 might as well throw that in.
        Revelation 11:8. Christ was crucified in Jerusalem. If every reference of Israel=Chruch….
        http://www.discoverrevelation.com/54.html
        that also seems like a good source….

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      • Hi Samuel. I don’t understand everything in your comment or see how it all fits in, but I think PJ’s question is a good one. If “Israels role is to be an instrument of God like a microphone,” as you say, what are they broadcasting to the world right now? A big part of Israel’s message is racial exclusion and constant talk of war and land-grabbing. On the other hand, the message of Jesus, true Israel, is one of salvation, reconciliation, forgiveness, and eternal life.

        You said, “Christ is the end goal,” and I agree. All of God’s promises in Him are “yes” and “amen” (II Corinthians 1:20). Since Jesus is the end goal and we rest in His finished work, why should we look to modern, national Israel to fulfill God’s goals and purposes?

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      • “A big part of Israel’s message is racial exclusion and constant talk of war and land-grabbing.”
        -_- Lies. All races and religions can get Israeli citizenship. The nations around Israel constantly attack them. Don’t blame the victim. “Land grabbing”? All the land of Eretz Israel belongs to them! The land grabbers are the so called “Palestinians”! The “Palestinians” are allowed to be there simply to plague Israel. Israel might not be acting as a microphone right now buy Israel is being brought to that role by God.
        All the things are lining up. The world is gathering its political might against Israel. The “Palestinians” want to divide Jerusalem for a fake peace. People want to rebuild the Temple. All eyes are on Israel. Jerusalem is indeed a cup of trembling.
        What do you think of the Holy Land? The role of the Church and Israel are very different. 144,000 witnesses come from the tribes of Israel. God has said all these things will take place and they are taking place.

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      • Samuel,

        National Israel doesn’t need to be brought to the role that Jesus already has (being the microphone of heaven). Jesus is not failing. His gospel “is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek” (Romans 1:16).

        The Palestinians are a real people who lived in the land, about a million strong, before 1948 and they live there now too. I get the feeling that the reason you keep putting their name in quotes (“Palestinians”) is because you don’t believe that. I’m a bit speechless regarding your statement that the Palestinians “are allowed to be there simply to plague Israel.” That’s crazy talk.

        The article that PJ Miller included in her comment this morning has a lot of good points about the topic of the holy land (this is in response to your question about that topic).

        I agree that the 144,000 came from the tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:1-8, 14:1-5). I don’t agree, however, that this prophecy is future. For one thing, they were called the “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” (Revelation 14:4). This makes sense if they were first century believers who lived during the generation when the church was born at Pentecost. It doesn’t make sense for believers living in the 21st century or beyond to be called “firstfruits.”

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  5. Hi Adam,
    I enjoyed your last sentence; great summary! And a nice twist to the meaning of replacement theology. Might I add that some Christians follow Christ, while Christian Zionists follow the political state of Israel. Sometimes it’s difficult to determine what your church’s belief system is. My short quiz might help. Try it here if you get time.

    – – -MysteryWorshiper

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  6. “It takes the role belonging to Jesus and assigns it to a political nation whose population generally has nothing to do with Him.”

    That makes sense because God says he will first re-gather them into their Land, and THEN change their hearts. The “Old Testament” is your guide to understanding who Israel is, and if you begin to approach it without spiritualizing away the people being spoken to by inserting Christianity and the Church, you will see it.

    Check out Ezekiel 34, 35, 36, and Jeremiah, chap 31 (if you believe in the New Covenant, notice it isn’t made with “the Church” or gentile Christians!) Jer 33: 14-26, but seriously– all through the Tanakh. Once you understand who Israel is to God and discover their purpose, hopefully you will understand the NT better and then join me in repenting for being part of a belief system that has brought the fires of hell down upon the Jewish people. Then all repentant believers can begin to reform The Reformation….

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    • Hi “Sojourning With Jews,”

      I’m glad you stopped by and commented, even though you’re at odds with my post. I do hope you’ll see the gravity of some things you said here, though. In this post I illustrated how the Christian Zionist interpretation of Genesis 12:3 “takes the role belonging to Jesus and assigns it to [the nation of Israel].” You referenced this quote, and said it makes sense. It does? Jesus suffered in great agony and took our sins upon Himself, so that all nations would be blessed through salvation in Him. This is His role, and you said it makes sense to assign it instead to a secular nation of Jews, Palestinians, and expatriates.

      I find it incredibly sad when Christians are enamored with Zionism and dispensationalism even at the expense of Jesus and His followers, but especially of Jesus their Savior. Isn’t that idolatry 101? That’s why I wrote this post.

      Concerning the Old Testament promises (spoken by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) that Israel would be regathered into the land, what do you think about the fact that these prophecies were given before the Israelites really did return to the land under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel? Why would these prophets have spoken about a return that would take place more than 2500 years later, instead of prophesying a return that would take place a few years or decades later? I don’t agree that they predicted the founding of Israel in 1948. I also believe they were allowed to see and prophesy about the glories of this present new covenant age. Sometimes those prophecies were interwoven with their nearer (in time) prophecies of Israel’s return under Persian leaders.

      You said that the Old Testament is my guide to seeing who Israel is, and (unless I misunderstood) you’re implying that I should identify “Israel” as the modern, political nation of Israel. I’m sorry, but it’s not going to happen. The New Testament is clear that Jesus is true Israel, and the Old Testament foreshadowed this truth as well. Do you believe or agree that the New Testament shows Jesus to be Israel? Do you also see how the inspired authors of the New Testament so often interpret Old Testament texts in their writings? It’s all about Jesus. There should be no turning back from that. And let me be clear – I don’t believe or teach that God is done with the Jews. God’s plans and purposes are wrapped up in Jesus, and God receives Jews who call upon Him no less than He receives non-Jews who call upon Him. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ; there is no distinction; there is no partiality; there is no unique program for Jews that God doesn’t have also with non-Jews. That’s a made-up, unbiblical teaching that has even gone so far that its proponents, in effect, are willing to kick Jesus to the curb and belittle the church (the body of Christ).

      Lastly, I’m concerned by your statement that the new covenant was not to be made with the church or with non-Jews. Are you saying that non-Jewish believers are not connected to God through the new covenant, and/or that we have no part in the new covenant? Jesus said His blood of the new covenant was shed for many for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28). His shed blood, then, is tied inseparably to the new covenant. Did He shed His blood only for the Jewish people? Are the sins of non-Jewish believers not covered by His blood? Hebrews 8:7-13 quotes directly from Jeremiah 31:31-34. Is it only true of Jewish believers today that “I will be their God, and they shall be My people…all shall know Me…For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more“?

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      • Hi Kloposmasm,
        Thanks for your reply. I actually have a different paradigm than you do, but I understand your view because I was immersed in it for so long, so I get it, and it isn’t easy to shake off.

        I’ve loved The Lord for many years and won’t be quitting. He is my life, love and salvation. Being married to a Jewish person, I’ve had to wrestle with the issues of Replacement Theology and the status of the Jewish people in a more intimate way than most Christians ever do and long story short, the Christian view that you stated is simply not sustainable if we are to also believe that God is faithful, truthful, all-knowing, sovereign, merciful.

        I don’t expect you to agree with me because the paradigm you look at God and scripture through is tightly woven and I know you have much company in your position which makes it feel even more secure. However, in my paradigm, I seek to do to damage to scripture and I see the NT as dependent upon the Tanakh, like the second story of a house is dependent upon the first. The second story collapses without the first.

        On to your questions. Was everything about Jesus? Yes and no. Yes as far as Messiah being the ultimate of everything! But we’re talking about Gods creation, who he loves too. And for some reason he has given humans life to live and to choose him, or not. I’m not in anyway diminishing Jesus, God forbid, I’m simply saying that God loves humans too, and we have a purpose. One reason I say this is because the very next child of Adam and Eve could have been Messiah, but instead he waited, and waited. And even tho Jesus has come and fulfilled the Suffering Servant prophecies, he hasn’t yet fulfilled the Reigning King or Davidic prophecies.

        The only way you cannot see that the New Covenant is not with Gentiles but specifically with Jews, is to either have never read it, or you’ve been conditioned not to see the words on the page. I mean no offense, because I was under the same impression as you are too. I hate putting this much in, but I also hate cherry picking verses.
        Jer 31: 23
        Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:“Once more they shall use these words in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes:
        “‘The Lord bless you, O habitation of righteousness,
        O holy hill! ’
        31:31-39
        “Here, the days are coming,” says ADONAI, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
        It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them, “says ADONAI. ” For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, “says ADONAI:” I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, ‘Know ADONAI’; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more. ”
        Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day
        and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
        who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord,
        then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”
        Thus says the Lord: “If the heavens above can be measured,
        and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
        then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.”
        This is what ADONAI says, who gives the sun as light for the day, who ordained the laws for the moon and stars to provide light for the night, who stirs up the sea until its waves roar-
        ADONAI- Tzva’ot is his name: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when the city shall be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. And the measuring line shall go out farther, straight to the hill Gareb, and shall then turn to Goah.

        This new covenant is specifically with Jews, and not Gentiles. And we know it hasn’t already happened (at least fully) because they don’t all know him yet. Additionally, we know that it is binding for all time because the “fixed order” has not departed and we cannot measure the heavens etc. that is the plain and obvious meaning of the text, and it is yet future. We are not a named party.

        You asked if I think non Jewish believers are part of the New Covenant.
        My answer is simple, but because of your paradigm I will try to be more thorough.
        God has offered knowledge of himself via the Jewish people. He could have identified with any people group, but he CHOSE Israel to identify himself with i.e., “The God of Israel” (Jewish people) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (specifically Jews). Then he gives more revelation of himself through other Jews and makes covenants and gives them commandments, many of which are for all time and in any foreign country they are scattered to (as punishment for turning away from Torah). He cultivated this people group to bring the center of life, Messiah, into the world as an observant Jew. He, Jesus, maintained his observance and dealt primarily with Jews and actively avoided Gentiles during his earthly life. He taught his Jewish disciples in some ways by contrast (don’t do what the Gentiles do etc) and he is indeed the King Of the Jews. He didn’t have a single gentile disciple and he never taught them to give up their religion/Torah, rather he properly interpreted Torah for them, which Jews have always said he would do. Lastly, it wasn’t Gentiles who were awaiting Messiah, for they didn’t even have any concept of this. Messiah is a completely Jewish concept because God told them about him via the scriptures.
        And we Gentiles get to draw near to Israel, the already cultivated tree, because he expanded his kingdom and allowed a partial hardening to skews for US Gentiles. He has not rejected his people according to Paul, but also according to the entire Bible. We get to partake in their covenant, but it is their covenant, not ours. That’s why it’s so egregious to kick them out of their own story.

        Sorry it’s so long.

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      • Sojourning with Jews, it is a delight to have you in this conversation. You have much to share and we all benefit when you do. Thanks again Adam for allowing these comments to sprawl out all over the place!

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    • Sojourning,

      I didn’t mean to abandon our conversation from nearly a month ago. Yes, we do have different paradigms. I won’t respond to everything in your last comment, but I’ll respond to a few things. By the way, I wish the best for your marriage, and for the light of God’s word to shine brightly as you continue to wrestle through the issues you mentioned.

      I believe that Jesus has indeed fulfilled the reigning king and Davidic prophecies. In Acts 2 Peter addressed the prophecies regarding the Messiah and David’s throne. He spoke of David’s expectation that God “would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne” (Acts 2:30). He then confirmed that God did raise Jesus up in this way (verse 32), and exalted Him to God’s right hand (verses 33-34). David’s prophecy was a reference to Christ’s resurrection and ascension, according to Peter, and this is fulfilled. Peter and James later also declared that the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David was fulfilled in their day with the turning to the Lord of both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:14-19). Jesus is on the throne of David and reigning now. Many well-known worship songs rightfully declare that Jesus presently reigns, but these songs are even sung in churches where it is taught that His reign will only begin in the future. Confusion reigns too.

      Regarding Jeremiah 31, I know that God said He would make a covenant “with the house of Israel.” I don’t agree that this phrase always did, presently does, or always will be a reference to Jews only. Hebrews 8 quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy, and the author of Hebrews declared it to be fulfilled in his day. In different places throughout the New Testament, the very things that Jeremiah prophesied for “the house of Israel” are said to already be true of the church, the body of Christ that is all one in Him regardless of ethnicity:

      -The law is written in our hearts.
      -God is our God, and we are His people.
      -God has forgiven our wickedness.
      -He remembers our sins no more.

      These are present realities for all who are in Christ. They are not waiting for a future fulfillment.

      God has not cast off all the Jewish people, and never will. He has been saving a remnant from among them for 2000 years and counting. And only a remnant will be saved, says Paul in Romans 9:27.

      The new covenant, made with the blood of Jesus (Matthew 26:28), is for all who call upon Him. In Him there is no distinction between Jews and non-Jews, no partiality, no favoritism, no superiority, no separation. None. And there never will be. This message rings loud and clear in the New Testament. Jesus made us all one 2000 years ago. It’s sad to see that there is a movement today seeking to undo what He has done.

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      • Thanks for your response.

        Regarding the Davidic prophecies, it clearly says that when Messiah reigns, people will beat their swords into plow shares and will no longer learn war. There are others like this too, and they clearly aren’t happening now, nor have they ever in the past. It is yet future.

        The law isn’t yet written on our hearts either! But I agree it’s in the process of happening.

        Regarding the Jews, there is a distinction between us, just as there is a distinction between male and female. However neither is a difference in value, nor access, we all have access to God via trust in Messiah.

        It’s unfortunate that you, like many Christians, aren’t willing to see God’s heart for the Jewish people, and end the theologies that have killed millions of them. Hopefully you will overcome that at some point.

        Btw, there’s no such word as “Church” in the Bible, and its a stumbling block for many who don’t know that. You can check it out online via the “Blue Letter Bible” if you don’t have access to the resources at home. The word is arbitrarily translated into Church in some places and not in others as well.

        Liked by 1 person

      • You’re welcome, and thanks for your response as well. I know of all kinds of Old Testament prophecies that people say “clearly aren’t happening now.” Often, I believe, there is a lack of seeing those prophecies in the light of the new covenant, of seeing how the New Testament interprets the Old Testament, and of understanding prophetic language.

        What if the “no war” and “no sword” imagery parallels the truth that the wall of hostility has been broken down by Jesus (Ephesians 2)? Many people say that it’s obvious that wolves and lambs don’t lie down together today, and therefore Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 remain unfulfilled. However, the apostle Paul declares otherwise, by quoting Isaiah 11 in Romans 15, and showing that its fulfillment is wrapped up in God’s calling together Jews and Gentiles through His Son, Jesus. In other words, wolves and lambs represent Gentiles and Jews. Isaiah wasn’t talking about the animal kingdom. This post goes into this in more detail:

        http://kloposmasm.com/2012/01/29/romans-15-shows-that-isaiah-11-is-fulfilled/

        I don’t deny God’s heart for Jewish people, but I do affirm that God has a heart for all peoples. I don’t hold to any theology that would advocate killing Jewish people, or that would advocate seeing them as at all inferior to anyone else.

        You said that there is a distinction between Jews and non-Jews. What is that distinction, in your mind, and where is it taught in the New Testament?

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      • Hi Adam,
        His heart for the Jewish people, that He created for His purposes, doesn’t at all mean that He cares less for non Jews. That seems to be an assumption made by people who believe like I think you do, but I don’t believe that at all. In fact He says many times in the Tanakh that He will eventually expand His blessings to include non Jews. That’s what you see evidence of in the New Testament I believe.

        The wall of hostility can be seen in different ways…but I would certainly say that that wall isn’t NOT down since for 2k years gentile Christians have directly and indirectly murdered millions of Jews.

        I reject the concept of reading the bible backwards. I used to do that, and felt hopelessly baffled at the inconsistency of the Christian message and then I realized that the second story of a house cannot stand without the first floor. God gave His primary revelation of Himself to Jews as found in the “Old Testament” and it must be the foundation that we view the NT with. If the NT deviates from what God has already revealed then our understanding of the NT is in error.

        Peter days Paul has teachings that are difficult to understand and that people twist them to their own destruction. I don’t understand why evangelical Christianity puts teachings into Paul’s mouth that contradict his own testimony, as well as contradicts the rest of scripture, but such is the case. Much of what is attributed to Paul would necessitate us getting rid of him if in fact he taught what most of Christianity says he taught. There is very good scholarship on Paul emerging that keeps him true to his Jewish life and the scriptures, thankfully…

        Regarding the distinction between Jew and Gentile? I’m caught off guard that you do not know this for its everywhere in the Bible. The (70) Nations and Israel, Jew and Gentile… I don’t know how one does NOT see it. It’s as if you were saying why I think theres a distinction between male and female. But I do know many Christians who’ve been taught to spiritualize Israel out of their own story too, so…? Covenants, Moses’ interaction with God and subsequent communication (Deut) God’s dealing with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Israelites, defining what a Jew is and how they are to live, eat, interact with each other and those who sojourn with them. On and on. Who is qualified to be a Cohen- Priest etc.

        Where is it in the NT? How about where Jesus says salvation is of the Jews? And that Samaritans don’t know what they worship, but Jews do. What about when he told his disciples not to go to the Gentiles, or to act like the Gentiles, or to pray like the Gentiles. How about how he said he came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel? When he told the gentile woman he didnt want to give the children’s (Jews) meal to the dog (a common reference to Gentiles)
        Or that he is King of the Jews, or when Peter said he would have never gone to a Gentiles house if not for the vision he had. Or how about Acts 15 and the Jerusalem council where James decided not to trouble the Gentiles with the full weight of the Torah? Or how about where Paul has to tell Gentiles that cross dressing isn’t ok?

        The list goes on and on. But let me just say, something appearing or not appearing in the NT isn’t what validates it, if its already known and taught in the Tanakh, after all, Jesus validates the Tanakh.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” Gal. 3:28

    “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
    by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two..” Eph.2: 14-15

    “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual” 1Cor. 15:46

    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” 1Cor. 2:14

    Adam, this statement alone,

    “But let me just say, something appearing or not appearing in the NT isn’t what validates it,”

    Shows me you are never going to get anywhere in this conversation. For if one starts from the position that does not consider the New Testament “The” Word of God,…well, you see what I mean.

    God bless you brother Adam

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    • Thank you, PJ, for quoting those particular passages here. They are full of truth, and also on point as regards the conversation that has been taking place the last couple of days. Yes, the breaking down of the wall of hostility had to do with the “one new humanity” that Jesus created. It remains one, despite all the efforts to make it two again.

      I do know what you mean about the position that the New Testament is something less than the Word of God. May God bless you as well.

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      • pjmiller was not saying that the New Testament is something less than the Word of God. He was saying that this is what Sojourning was saying. She believes that only the Old Testament is the true Word of God and if the New Testament seems to contradict the Old, the New is to be discarded. She has obviously been deceived by the Hebrew Roots teachings that the New Covenant is nothing more that a renewed Old Covenant.

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  8. Blindness, The curse of man’s theology.

    Thank God for His Word. The WHOLE Word.

    As for the suggestion that “Sojourning with Jews” view “starts from the position that does not consider the New Testament “The” Word of God” – I have to say I’m astounded by such a blatant lie. Her comments are FULL of references to the New Testsament and the authority of what Paul taught.

    And I recall some comments about the term “Replacement Theology” being a straw man – what IS a straw man argument is constant references to the current political state of Israel and its population and asserting that is at the heart of the issue.

    Scripture makes it clear who Israel is, Paul makes it clear who Israel is. And Paul and the rest of scripture make Israel’s future abundantly clear.

    But unfortunatley, for some, man’s theology can be more appealing than scripture.

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    • Onesimus, I’m confident that no blatant lie was told by PJ or myself regarding Sojourning with Jews’ view of the New Testament. I’ll admit that I’m a bit fuzzy on a couple of things that she said regarding the NT and Paul’s writings – I’m not 100% sure what she meant, and could have misunderstood something. However, it’s clear that she doesn’t believe that the NT should be allowed to interpret the OT, that she believes the NT should not be allowed to define who Israel is, and that she believes the NT may have “deviated” from what God had already revealed, etc. There are some rather serious denigrating remarks about the NT in her comments, even if I have possibly misunderstood a couple of things. [Sojourning, if I’ve misrepresented you in any of these comments, I ask for your forgiveness, and please do bring greater clarification.]

      Standing on the other side of this/these issue(s), I certainly agree that people often find their theology to be more appealing than Scripture.

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      • Adam, who determined that any part of scripture should be “interpeted”?

        The NT clearly defines who Israel is.

        And I didnl;t see anywhere that Sojourning with Jews suggested or hinted that the NT deviated from what God had already revealed. ON the contrary she indicates it BUILT on what was already revealed. ON the other hand you discard what was revealed in the OT to replace it with a theological interpretation that you have n

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  9. (my comment went haywire and posted itself before being completed)

    ON the other hand you discard what was revealed in the OT to replace it with a theological interpretation that you have no scriptural reason to make.

    I repeat Who determined that any part of scripture should be “interpreted” by any means?

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  10. Maybe the problem you have with understanding is that you were taught the NT without being given understanding of its background in the “Old Testament”. And then you were taught to project preconceptions back into the OT.

    You need to go back to read the OT free of your preconceptions and attempted interpretations.

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  11. So, in replacement theology the church has replaced Israel as the primary means by which the world is blessed by God’s work. Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah , etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

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  12. Quoting from Adam above:

    Regarding Jeremiah 31, I know that God said He would make a covenant “with the house of Israel.” I don’t agree that this phrase always did, presently does, or always will be a reference to Jews only. Hebrews 8 quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy, and the author of Hebrews declared it to be fulfilled in his day. In different places throughout the New Testament, the very things that Jeremiah prophesied for “the house of Israel” are said to already be true of the church, the body of Christ that is all one in Him regardless of ethnicity.”

    I agree with you Adam 100% in all that you said in your article, but I also believe there is a clear path to understand Jeremiah’s prophecy which by the way came from the Lord Jesus Himself since He is the creator of all there is (John 1:3, Col 1:16).

    Let’s not forget that Jesus is not simply Man but also He is God, therefore when we refer to “God” we must not leave the Son or the Holy Spirit out since God is a Trinity and cannot be carved out to fit our beliefs. So, when we say “God”, we are actually referring to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. 🙂

    As for the prophecy that Jeremiah gave to Israel and Judah, let’s not forget that when Jesus was born there was a very small Jewish remnant alive that indeed was represented as the true Israel of God, or a people that had faith in God’s promises.

    So, the Israel of God made out of pure Jews believed God and received His promise. Among them were, Zechariah the priest, Anna his wife, Mary, Joseph, Ana, the prophetess, Simon (the old man), and a few hundred believers that were waiting for the consolation of Israel. So, in that sense God the Son fulfilled His promise to Israel and Judah by coming into the middle of them as shall we say, “The last Israelite” or the only true Israelite that was faithful and obedient to the Father in every possible way?

    Now, as for Jesus, He is the fulfillment and the door to all the promises made to Israel because creation was made by Him, through Him and FOR Him (Col 1:16).

    Proof of that is found in Luke 24:27, 44 where Jesus opens the minds of Jewish believers and reveals to them that He wad the fulfillment to all the prophesies, covenants, promises, etc.

    NAU Luke 24:27 “Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.”

    NAU Luke 24:44 “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    Most believers are sorely mistaken because they don’t understand that for Israel to be Israel they had to have the divine ingredient called “faith.” The proof is that every time the nation stopped believing God at His word and broke the covenant, the curses of the covenant came upon them, which meant they were either they were exiled or were taken over by unbelieving foreigners that oppressed them and squeezed them until a cry of repentance went up to heaven.

    Even from the beginning, when Israel came out of Egypt they couldn’t enter into the Promised Land right away because of unbelief, and every one of them died in the wilderness with the exception of the believing Jews.

    All we have to do is read the entire Old Covenant and realize that the history of Israel was a series of failures, returns and more failures until finally the broken the covenant without repair. God then worked with the remnant only until the SEED came into the picture because God’s plan has always been the world.

    John 3:16 still reverberated through the ages… For God so loved the world that He gave…

    Sufficient to say that Israel is not the body of Christ, is not the bride of the Lamb, and is not the “city” that comes down from heaven, yet the church is.

    As a last point, we the church are the Holy of Holies of the Most High God (the “neos” of God) and Christ is our hope of glory (1 Cor 3:19, Col 1:27).

    So, if we are in Christ and Christ is in us (so is the Father and the Spirit according to John 14:23), what else can we expect but to believe that we are the final product and all the God planned before the foundation of the world. We, the church are the Israel of God because we are a people of faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.

    Finally, I would consider a very strange thing that if the political nation of the Middle East is truly God’s people, how come He hasn’t spoken to them for 2,000 years? What kind of covenant is that?

    Thank you for your insight. i absolute love it when children of God speak the truth in love.

    John 14:6 ” I am… the TRUTH.” Apart from Jesus there is no truth.

    NAU Phil 3:3 “For we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.”

    So, if we the church is the true circumcision, who is the false one?

    (I was kicked out unceremoniously from a Christian group when I posed this question….)

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    • Thanks for your comments, Joe. I’m not too surprised that you were kicked out because of that question. That’s a good point about “Zechariah the priest, Anna his wife, Mary, Joseph, Ana, the prophetess, Simon” and others who “were waiting for the consolation of Israel” at the time of Jesus’ birth. Indeed, because of their faith, they took part in the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy, and they also made up the Israel of God, while others who shared their ethnicity found themselves outside of the Israel of God.

      No problem about the mistakes. I’ve corrected the reference to Simon to say “old man.”

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      • By the way, I absolute love the picture of you two together… It tells me a lot about who you are… 🙂

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      • Once again you respond with nonsense.
        The consonant with Moses=/Abraham. -_- You need to read my comments. The old priest system was abolished but that doesn’t abolish the covenant with the descendants of Abraham.
        Do you know the Church is part of Christ or its not the Church? Do you know the Church can’t make a deal with the anti Christ? Why do you want to soil the Church with Israel? Do you want the tribulations of Israel? Do you think the Church doesn’t worship Christ? That’s how Israel is mentioned in the Bible.
        Read Revelations. Christ completely replaces Jerusalem and reigns from there for a thousand years. Right now Jerusalem is filthy but God will cleanse the city.
        Jerusalem does not refer to the Church. the whole world is going to against the Church to “divide it”? How on Earth?!
        The promised land was holy to God before Abraham. Why do you think God promised that particular area?
        Christ second coming is over the Temple Mount. I just want to emphasize there’s no way you read Zechariah 14:4 any other way.
        Israel as a people have not looked upon whom they have pierced and mourned.
        Mourning for Israel/Temple or whatever else doesn’t count. Your point 6 made no sense at all. I believe the former about Daniel. The world is REALLY focused on dividing Jerusalem. The anti Christ will be the one that succeeds.

        The “Palestinians” have been the “Palestinians” since Arafat. Before they were Syrians, Egyptians ect. I’m very serious about “Palestinians” being a punishment from God. One can’t be a “Palestinian Christian” anymore than one can an atheist and believe in God. A “Palestinian” that converts to Christianity is saved from a “Palestinian”.
        I’m just going to repeat that God promised to bring back the people of Israel back even when they didn’t worship him. That he would do it for his names sake.
        I do acknowledge you at least know how to bring up challenging verses. The descendants of Israel are disconnected from God but tribulation shall bring them back.
        Sort of like you can take a dog into the forest but you might not be able to make it a wolf.
        God brought them back but they’re still not of Israel.
        -_-You’ve yet to give response as to how Holy stopped being to God between the old testament and the new testament.
        its impossible to read and comprehend the Bible without Zionism.
        http://christiandiscussionsmsn.yuku.com/reply/127743/Amillennialism-Liberation-Theology-Replacement-Theology-Isla#reply-127743
        The truth is out there and I pray that your eyes are opened.
        I know Hal Lindsey has a great response to replacement theology.
        http://www.hallindsey.com/videos/?vid=234
        I think he’s done a few of those.

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    • I need to set you straight on a lot of things!
      1) part of the covenant with the descendants of Abraham is that they will be persecuted when they turn away from God. God brought them back as a tool to show the world that God keeps promises.
      2) Why has no people truly made Israel a nation until recently? We all know Eretz Israel is holy to God and I mean the land.
      3) The covenant regarding them people with God was in regards to worship. -_- The one made when God took them out of Egypt isn’t the one where God promises them Israel.
      4) The covenant wasn’t “broken beyond repair”. I by that I mean promise of Israel. God is punishing them with the “Palestinians” right now.
      http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-21.htm
      5) Israel and the Church are not the same thing. There are no 12 tribes of the Church. Jerusalem refers to nothing to in the Church.
      http://biblehub.com/zechariah/12-10.htm
      6)That part still hasn’t happened. Christ was pierced but Israel didn’t mourn. Israel shall mourn when Christ comes again. The Church shall rejoice when Christ comes again. Israel will experience tribulation and the remnant shall be saved….
      7)I don’t understand why certian Christians want the promises of Israel want the promises of Israel warts and all when the promises of the Church are greater.
      When the bible says the Church it means the Church and when it says Israel it means Israel. -_- Who want the horrible things that are going to happen to Israel anyway?! Maybe you like to think of the Church making an agreement with the anti Christ but I don’t!!

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      • Samuel,

        Is this comment addressed to me or to someone else? If it’s to me, Christian Zionist or dispensationalist teachings won’t “set me straight”; I grew up under those movements, and I’m grateful to God for bringing me out of them. I will briefly respond to your seven points:

        1) God’s promises and covenant are with Abraham’s children according to faith, not according to the flesh. Those who are merely his natural descendants, but not his spiritual descendants, aren’t even part of Israel (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:28-29). God has already shown the world that He keeps His promises, through His Son’s birth, life, ministry, work on the cross, resurrection, and ascension in fulfillment of many prophecies. What happened in 1948 had nothing to do with any Bible prophecies.

        2) I don’t understand the significance of your first question. With regard to the land of Israel allegedly being holy to God, why is there no such emphasis in the New Testament, and why does Paul instead say that Abraham was to be “heir of the world” (Romans 4:13); and why does the author of Hebrews say that the patriarchs desired a “better” and a “heavenly” country (Hebrews 11:13-16); why is earthly Jerusalem said to be in bondage, cast out, and not the portion of new covenant believers, while new Jerusalem is said to be free, the mother of God’s people, and the city that God’s people have come to (Galatians 4:21-31, Hebrews 12:18-28)?

        3) I don’t understand this comment or know how to respond to it.

        4) Which covenant wasn’t “broken beyond repair”? If you’re talking about the old covenant, it was made obsolete at the cross and vanished a generation later (Hebrews 8:6-13). Why did you put “Palestinians” in quotes? There really are Palestinians, and have been for a long time. Some of them are my brothers and sisters in Christ. God is punishing Israel with them – are you serious?

        5) That depends on who you identify as Israel. There was an “Israel of God” in Paul’s day (Galatians 6:16), and those who rejected Jesus weren’t part of it (Acts 3:22-23, Romans 9:6-8). The “Israel of God” carried on when national Israel was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, and it carries on until today. Modern, national Israel, which was founded in 1948, though, is not the church. I’ll agree with you on that.

        Jerusalem absolutely does refer to the church. Jerusalem is “a rejoicing, and her people a joy” (Isaiah 65:18). Jerusalem is “free” and “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26). Jerusalem is “the city of the living God,” linked to “the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven” (Hebrews 12:22-23). Jerusalem was “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” (Revelation 21:2), i.e. the bride of Christ. Of course, I’m talking about heavenly Jerusalem. Earthly Jerusalem was left desolate (Matthew 23:38) and was cast out (Galatians 4:22-23, 25, 30).

        6) Israel didn’t mourn? There was a great deal of grief and mourning at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This weeping and mourning was also predicted in Revelation 18:9, 11, 15, and 19. You seem to be referring to Zechariah 12:10-14, which was fulfilled at that time. On what basis would you say it was not? The great tribulation took place once (67 – 70 AD), during Jesus’ own generation (Matthew 24:21, 34). It doesn’t need to happen again, and no Biblical prediction says it will happen again.

        7) I hope that nothing horrible does happen to Israel, and I don’t believe that Scripture predicts any future horror for modern Israel. I don’t know what you mean about “the Church making an agreement with the anti Christ,” unless you’re making a reference to Daniel 9:27 and the dispensationalist assumption that Daniel predicted a covenant between “the Antichrist” and Israel (neither of which are actually mentioned in that verse). I agree with the older interpretation that says this was a prophecy of Jesus establishing the new covenant with many for the forgiveness of sins (compare with Matthew 26:28) and bringing an end to the sacrificial system through the sacrifice of Himself.

        Liked by 1 person

  13. I wished I could have edited what I wrote… There are some mistakes that I would have loved to correct. When referring to Simon, I meant to say “old man” not “the only man.” There other mistakes also.
    Sorry about that…

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  14. Samuel, forgive me for placing this question at the end of the thread, but it wasn’t possible to place it under your comment. I was just curious, you wrote;

    “Jesus role is saving humanity while Israels role is to be an instrument of God like a microphone”

    If you believe Israel’s role is to be an instrument, like a microphone, what exactly do you believe they are “broadcasting” to the world?

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    • God is acting upon Israel. A lot of Israels problems stem from not accepting Christ. Israel will enter into incredible tribulation and the remnant shall believe in Christ.
      http://biblehub.com/zechariah/12-10.htm
      That hasn’t happened yet. They need to realize what was done.
      I’m not sure what frightens me more, that people think Christian Zionists think Jews can go to heaven with Christ or that a very small minority of Christian Zionists do believe that…
      Without Israel being Israel so much of the Bible becomes comprehensible.

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      • Quote: A lot of Israels problems stem from not accepting Christ

        THAT i can agree with you on. But as long as we have a majority of American Christians believing (and teaching others) that they are still God’s chosen people (they are not) and can enter the Kingdom of God without entering by-way of Jesus (they can not), the gospel is being with-held from lost Jews.

        What did Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit of God write?

        “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” Romans 10:14

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  15. Samuel,

    quote-
    “Lies. All races and religions can get Israeli citizenship”

    Don’t think that’s exactly correct Samuel.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law

    Also see: Israeli Supreme Court upholds discriminatory citizenship law – http://mondoweiss.net/2012/01/israeli-supreme-court-uphold-discriminatory-citizenship-law-human-rights-shouldnt-be-a-recipe-for-national-suicide

    There appears to be a huge difference about what appears on a baby’s birth certificate in Israel, depending on if the baby is Jewish or not. The citizenship of a Jewish infant is registered as Israeli–not so for a non-Jewish (Palestinian) child. Even if that child’s family have lived in Israel/Palestine for many generations. It is left blank. Please see – http://books.google.com/books?id=Qxo55svQBNUC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=palestinian+baby+born+in+israel+are+not+listed+as+citizens+on+birth+certificate&source=bl&ots=2TCuTLy5Q0&sig=bVONwkqWGBIGuIVvXfkg7uMEXFI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y9hqVOzxI4eBygTTnoCgBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=palestinian%20baby%20born%20in%20israel%20are%20not%20listed%20as%20citizens%20on%20birth%20certificate&f=false

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    • “Palestinians” apply for citizenship and are often granted it. Look it up. -_- Does that mean every “Palestinian has been granted citizenship? No, it means they can apply for it if they want it.

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      • That is not true.

        When two people are American citizens and have a child born in America, that child is an American citizen; it is thus stated on the child’s birth certificates. This is not true of non-Jews in Israel.

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      • I hope this goes in the right area… Anyway, If someone with Israeli citizenship has a baby with someone else with Israeli citizenship the baby has citizenship.
        Not all nations use the method of the US for bestowing citizenship. A lot of European nations are far stricter than we are.

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    • -_- You’re article contains a LOT of problems. I wanted to vomit every time it mentioned “Canaan”. -_- Couldn’t even stand to call the land by its name eh?
      1)The promise of the land was absolute.
      2) God promised to being back the Jewish people back to their land in the end days.
      3) Christian Zionists believe Jews need Jesus to go heaven/salvation.
      4) ‘To interpret these predictions literally would be a retrograde elevation of type over antitype.” 100% wrong.
      5) Christ will destroy Jerusalem and replace it physically. Christ will reign a 1000 years from that city before everything is completed.
      6) There has never been a “Palestine” before in history. It was occupied since the time of the Romans. Read Revelations.
      7) The land is special to God.
      8) Take on the promises for Israel into Church and you debase the Church.

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      • Samuel i see a problem, biblically, with most everyone of your (8) points. But as this is Adam’s blog and we are only guests i will not attempt to go into all of it here. If you ever want to discus this in length you are invited to visit my blog where you will find many posts on the topics in question and we can “discuss in length”. http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/

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      • I wasn’t going to reply to these either, but #6 is a curiosity, to say the least. Since the book of Revelation doesn’t mention Palestine by name, why should we read Revelation in order to understand the history of Palestine? (I ask that as someone who loves the book of Revelation.) It’s also incredibly inaccurate to say that there never has been a Palestine in history. What an astounding statement to make.

        By the way, I don’t mind if discussions continue on these things. So far most everything is at least relevant to the post.

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      • Well, i’ll tackle number (3)- “Christian Zionists believe Jews need Jesus to go heaven/salvation”

        Samuel, there may very well be some who do believe this but lets look at one in particular. I pick him out because its claimed he runs the largest Christian Zionist organization (CUFI) in the USA, possibly the world. I refer to John Hagee. Its a well know known fact, and has been discussed for years, that Hagee does not believe all Jews need to come to salvation through Jesus Christ.

        The Houston Chronicle quoted him years ago as saying during an interview,

        ““I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”9

        The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words:

        “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”

        And further revealed:

        “In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11

        See: http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

        When his organization holds their “Night to Honor Israel” events, both Christians who are members of CUFI (Christians United for Israel) and Orthodox Jews attend. The Christian members are “warned” prior to these events to NOT speak to any of the Jews in attendance about the Gospel and to not mention the name of Jesus….for by doing so it will offend the Jews attending.

        David Brog, who is the executive director of John Hagee’s “Christians United For Israel” (CUFI) is an American Jew who denies Jesus as the Messiah, but works along-side Hagee to promote political and financial support for Israel, from among American Evangelicals.

        Brog, when asked in an interview (in many interviews actually) concerning CUFI working toward converting Jews to Christ, he responded by saying,

        “The important question is this: Is evangelical support for Israel merely a tool in the effort to convert the Jews? Is this merely some scheme to soften the Jews up so that they can better sell Jesus to them? And the answer to this question is absolutely not. If anything, the opposite it true. Christians who support Israel tend to know more Jews and to understand their sensitivities better than Christians who do not. Thus, they have learned that Jews find “Jesus talk” offensive, and they tend to leave it out of the dialogue.”

        Brog said the group (CUFI) tells people (Christians),

        ‘If you cannot put aside your desire to share the Gospel with Jews, there’s the door’” (Eric Fingerhut, “Educating on Evangelicals.” Washington Jewish Week. July 4, 2007).

        See: http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/christian-zionism-in-america-cufi-claims-over-a-million-members/

        John Hagee, the most well known Christian Zionist around, holds to a false theology referred to as Dual-Covenant theology. He believes non-Jews need Jesus in order to obtain salvation, but Jews do not. He is a heretic.

        See: “John Hagee’s Dual Covenant Duplicity” -http://www.apostasywatch.com/Wolves/WolfReports/JohnHagee/Hageedualcovenant/tabid/161/Default.aspx

        See: “John Hagee on Salvation for the Jews” -http://www.apologeticsindex.org/357-john-hagee-salvation

        See: “Dual Covenant Theology and CUFI”- http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/dual-covenant-theology-and-cufi/

        John Hagee is by far not the only well-known Christian Zionist who runs an organization which shuns the biblical truth that all have sinned and ALL need Jesus, including lost Jews. I could fill up the entire front page of Adam’s blog with evidence of a number of other so-called Christian men and women, well known, who teach dual covenant theology. Steven Strang, editor of Charisma Magazine would be in that list. Its not a coincidence that he sits on the board of John Hagee’s CUFI organization.

        Samuel, if i may make a suggestion: you need to do some serious studying (and research) on this, and some of the other topics you listed.

        God bless

        Liked by 1 person

      • Paul says the promise (the Abrahamic one) was made to Abraham and his seed not seeds as to many but seed as to one. He is referring to Christ. He is the heir. The land belongs to him and those who chooses to give it to Galatians says that the fellow heirs are the church. His family is spiritual. When the High Priest ripped his garment and spit in Jesus’s face he was disinheriting Jesus-saying Jesus was no longer a Jew. When God ripped the veil of the temple at the time of the crucifixion he was disinheriting the Jewish ruling authorities. Revelation 20 does not mention Jerusalem(that’s eisegesis) It says that martyrs come to life and rule with Christ. But the whole passage is a hapox–sound exegesis requires two witnesses to make a doctrine.

        Liked by 1 person

  16. I dislike how hard it is to reply. I’m having a hard time just finding my own comments…
    1) You use the word Palestine a lot as a way to refer to a people and a nation.

    They have no history.
    2) I think no special effort should be made. Jews hear the good news and convert on their own. Christian Zionism is a very broad spectrum.
    3) “First fruits” is something that has religious connotations. I suggest studying up on the topic of Israel and the first fruits. First fruits were offered at the Temple… It doesn’t mean they’re first. They come out of the great tribulation.
    4) The quiz I saw was a political thing. -_- Its like do you police protect people? If yes you’re a godless heathen and if you don’t you’re God fearing… The quiz listed facts about Israel. Agree with reality equals hatred for God?

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    • Samuel, I too am not sure the point you’re trying to make, but I can tell you that to reply to a comment more than two levels deep you have to reply to the second comment, which is the first reply to the original comment, and so all replies keep adding to the bottom of the list.

      I agree, it is unusual and less than intuitive but, just to be clear, that is a WordPress issue, not a “Pursuing Truth” issue.

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  17. Samuel, as you didn’t directly respond to any of the information i shared on the question of Christian Zionists believing Jews need Jesus, and im afraid i can’t make heads or tails of what your last comment is trying to say (quiz??), im not going to respond. If you ever decide to respond directly to any of the points i laid out i’ll be glad to come back to this.

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    • A commenter shared a quiz link. I should have re provided the link though.
      http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=ChristvsZionist
      1) I already responded to most of it saying Jews convert on their own.
      -_- Its rude to preach at interfaith meetings. Of course people shouldn’t preach at those places! If anyone attending wanting to get preached to all they need to do is contact one of the churches outside of the event.

      I’ve already pointed out that Christian Zionism is a broad spectrum. I don’t even care who Hagee is. My mother is a Christian Zionist, she also believes Jews go to hell. I believe if Hagee was asked whether Jews go to hell or not he might say they have a chance in purgatory* or might say they go to hell. (*Don’t believe in that place myself)
      I do know that some Christian Zionists are confused on a few issues. However that doesn’t define it. Saying Hagee’s believes represent every Christian Zionist is like saying people who riot when their favorite sports team loses represent all sports.
      Having Hagee as a leader of a Christian Zionist organization helps to not scare Jews away.
      Jews are very wary of Christian Zionism.
      I believe that this link describes Christian Zionism pretty well.
      http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/christianzionism.html

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  18. does not the one new man that paul talks about constitute the continuation of the faith people which is composed of both jew and gentile; this being in contrast to the synagogue rabinnical system that came out of the wrath of god that was executed my means of the roman battle axes and swords

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  19. Adam, you’ve obviously hit a nerve with this post, but I commend you.

    It’s truly incredible that so many professing Christians (I believe most) still can not understand the very clear scriptures regarding Christ and Israel, as you’ve laid it out here. It’s like they have been spiritually blinded for some reason, that they can not see the words of God.

    I’ve had this same discussion with my parents many times, and emailed them back and forth, quoting all the same scriptures you quoted in this post and yet they can not see it. They still believe that “Israel” is that nation in the middle east. It honestly baffles my mind.

    Liked by 1 person

    • The whole world wants to divide Jerusalem just like it says in end time prophesy. Christ has either reigned a thousand years already or Israel still has a role to play…
      Everything Adam said can be interpreted in different ways. -_- Both sides in this debate call the other side spiritually blinded. Christian Zionist say hatred of Jews blinds replacement of Jews and replacement theologians say Christian Zionists are blinded to the truth. Read my earlier posts.

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      • You said “Christ has either reigned a thousand years already or Israel still has a role to play”

        Or, the thousand year reign is not a literal thousand years and Christ still reigns today, and we with him.

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      • Vincent W The comment before was simply pointing out that there are two sides to this debate. And you shoved your “one side” right back down our throats, not very well played, good sir.

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      • Samuel, Jesus’ reign is forever and is not limited to a thousand years (whatever period of time that represents). Looking at Revelation 20, it’s those who were beheaded and didn’t worship the beast who “lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (verses 4, 6). Their reign is temporary, but Jesus’ reign is not, and He has been reigning for many centuries.

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      • Revelation 20:4
        Christ will reign a thousand years, deal with Satan one last time and reign forevermore.
        I’m having a real hard time using word press whatever. This comment is fairly close to the comment I’m responding to.

        “Samuel, Jesus’ reign is forever and is not limited to a thousand years (whatever period of time that represents). Looking at Revelation 20, it’s those who were beheaded and didn’t worship the beast who “lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (verses 4, 6). Their reign is temporary, but Jesus’ reign is not, and He has been reigning for many centuries.”
        That is in complete contradiction of the Bible no matter how you spin it. -_- You probably think the beast has already “done his job”.
        I’m just going to put this in again to make sure its seen. I wish this site handled responses like yahoo, YouTube and Facebook. Those comment sections are much easier to use.

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      • Samuel, you’re welcome to demonstrate how what I said about Revelation 20 and Jesus’ reign is “in complete contradiction of the Bible” instead of continuing to simply make this statement. In other words, you’re welcome to back up your statement with some substance. Yes, I do believe that the beast of Revelation did his/its “job” a long time ago. Here’s a post outlining 10 fulfilled prophecies concerning the beast:

        http://kloposmasm.com/2009/11/16/revelation-chapter-13-part-5-ten-fulfilled-prophecies/

        If you want to open up a discussion about the beast, please feel free to start it under that post. There are no comments there yet, and you should have no trouble.

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      • Adam   browsed much of your stuff,  I like it haven’t found any thing about the two sisters born of one mother in Ezekiel 23, aholah and aholabah are they not the most obvious the harlots of babylonia   God speed   bill bryant

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      • Hi Bill. Thanks. You’re right that I haven’t yet posted a study on Ezekiel 23, and the two sisters (one was Jerusalem) were definitely portrayed as harlots about to be judged in Ezekiel’s day. This does tie in well with the book of Revelation, where the harlot/Babylon the Great was once again Jerusalem, a city once again facing judgment for its spiritual harlotry and for the bloodshed of God’s servants.

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      • Adam   appreciate your comments   am commenting in two study groups and we are dealing with so to speak—– the end times so if you see the prophecies in micah and jer about jersualem being plowed as a field, one then musk ask when did this plowing take place as per the jewish virtual library—- emperor hadrain of Rome plowed jersualem after the bar kochba war   so, I am thinking that the Ezekiel prophecy extended to the plowing of jersualem— to the end of time    I am thinking that the harlot Judah (aholabah) was finally judged and dealt with during the bar kochba war—-when the plowing of jersualem took place, it was done end of times saw the old law pass away and the new covenant descend down from heaven and we got new jersualem all around us   regards    

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      • “Samuel, you’re welcome to demonstrate how what I said about Revelation 20 and Jesus’ reign is “in complete contradiction of the Bible” instead of continuing to simply make this statement. In other words, you’re welcome to back up your statement with some substance. Yes, I do believe that the beast of Revelation did his/its “job” a long time ago.”

        I misread your comment a little bit. You should have pointed that out.

        After Revelations is something that deals with peace on Earth. It talks about satan being sealed way for eternity. It talks about Christ physically reigning over Earth. It describes a physical city being created by God that only Christians can enter. We will become like Angels and stop pro creating…

        1) The mark of Beast has never been offered.
        2) satan is more powerful than ever before. If Revelations was over satan would be removed. Everyone would believe in Christ.
        3) Not a single tribulation mentioned has happened.
        4) Can you describe how you see the events of Revelation?

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      • Adam   grace and peace to you when your out and about, stop in, you would be welcome   have you considered this aholabah (Judah) was dealt with in revelations, Hadrian plowed Jerusalem at the end of the bar kochba war, as Micah prophesied—Jerusalem would be plowed like a field revelations depicts this judgment of god, the end of the era, the last days—-it is done as sayeth the vision of john the four horsemen, Jesus on the white horse, the roman Jewish wars depicted by the horsemen bringing war famine and the end of the harlot’s apostasy, just short of 3,000,000 died during this judgment—basically a third of the jewish population perished   the new covenant then established, the kingdom of our lord then has unfolded for the past 2,000 years   the best too you and your wife   boggy creek bishop

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      • Samuel,

        I believe you’re insisting on things that are not found in the pages of Revelation: “…Christ physically reigning over Earth…a physical city being created by God…We will become like Angels and stop pro creating…”

        You asked how I view the book of Revelation. I see it as a book about the transition from the old covenant age to the new covenant age. I see it as a book written to seven first century churches that were partners with John in a time of persecution (Rev. 1:9) – the 3.5 years of persecution under Nero (November 64 AD – June 68 AD), I believe. I see it as a book about events that were soon to take place, because the time of fulfillment was near (Rev. 1:1-3). I see it as a book about the judging of the harlot woman (Jerusalem/old covenant Judaism: Rev. 11:8, Rev. 16 – 18) and God embracing His bride, the body of Christ (Rev. 21 – 22). You’re welcome to explore my views on Revelation in much more depth at this page (you’ll see a series of studies covering every chapter and nearly every verse in Revelation):

        http://kloposmasm.com/revelation/

        The studies on Revelation 13 address the mark of the beast, which you say “has never been offered.”

        The series at the top of this page (http://kloposmasm.com/olivet-discourse/) addresses the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14), which Jesus said (Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19, Luke 21:23) would take place before His own generation would pass away (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).

        Liked by 1 person

      • wbryant11,

        Grace and peace to you as well. I don’t know as much as I’d like to about the Bar Kochba War. When you speak of 3 million being killed, are you talking about the rebellion in 135 AD? If so, I didn’t know the numbers were that high.

        Yes, I believe that Judah was dealt with in Revelation, as Jerusalem was identified as the great city (Rev. 11:8), also known as the harlot (Rev. 17), guilty of shedding the blood of the saints, prophets, and apostles (Matthew 23:29-37; Rev. 16:3-7, Rev. 17:1-6, Rev. 18:20-24). I believe the new covenant was established at the cross, but that it stood alone by 70 AD with the old covenant system completely done away with (Hebrews 8:13). It’s equated with the kingdom that couldn’t be shaken when all else was shaken (Hebrews 12:22-29). I agree – “the kingdom of our Lord then has unfolded for the past 2,000 years.”

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      • Adam   yes indeed to my knowledge the bar kochba war executed by Hadrian, had death numbers on the order of 600,000 —-so by my understanding the jewish roman wars lasted something on the order of 70 years starting in 66 and running to 135/136—total numbers amounting to something like 3,000,000 something like a quarter to a third of the jewish world population—it took 12 roman legions to finish the roman jewish wars   wars went something like; galilee, jersualem, masada Egypt Cyprus or coastal asia minor then bar kochba; note; it is clearly significant the destruction of the temple in fulfillment of jesus words, but it is also significant that bar kochba could put a resistance force in place that rocked Hadrian’s legions, gruesome gurella type warfare   so I got the judgment of  Judea, ending in 135 with Hadrian plowing Jerusalem like a field as per micah—-with this end, national political religious Israel was laid waste. both whores born in Egypt aholah and aholabah judged and divorced   best to your

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      • 1) Who on Earth makes a prophecy for things occurring in the present day?
        The link you provided should be laughed off as a bad joke.
        I believe Revelations is series of literal events.
        Consider the fact that Zachariah is talking about some of the same events as in Revelations.
        2) Rome never conquered the whole of the Earth. When the Bible says the world will come against Israel it means 100%. Anyone calling the tribulations “symbolic” discredit themselves right there.
        When Revelations says that the angel poured his bowl into the sea nd it became like blood that’s what happened world wide.
        Christians are under greater persecution than any time in history and you believe satan is defeated? I thought about linking your own articles but you sort of have already.
        I’m simply going to pray for you. Regardless of whether you believe Revelation is to come or has already happened you at least are Christian.
        I look forward to hope for a 1000 year peace and Christs eternal reign on Earth.

        Arguing with you doesn’t bring world peace any faster.

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      • Samuel, you’re free to give your opinion. The link you’re referring to (“Book of Revelation Fulfilled”) includes 64 different posts with enough content to keep a person busy for days. I hope you haven’t made your judgment (“…should be laughed off as a bad joke”) without actually browsing a decent amount of that content.

        If you wish to discuss specific prophecies in the book of Revelation, it would be best if you would address those questions underneath the relevant posts in that series rather than here under this post. Thanks.

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      • Samuel, the whole world is already against Israel. James 4:4 makes it clear that there are only two sides in this war. You are either with God, or with the world.

        James 4:4
        You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

        The reason you don’t see it is because you don’t understand what “Israel” is. Israel is God’s people, and that is all those who believe in Christ Jesus. So anyone who is against God, is against his people, Israel.

        Furthermore, if you don’t see a lot of poetry and symbolism in scripture in general and in the book of Revelation in particular, you will never understand any of it and you will continue to be as spiritually lost as were the Jews in the desert. It’s as simple as that.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I too was taken in by that teaching because I trusted my pastors and my elders to have done the research, and I felt no need to do my own Bible studies. My eyes were opened one day when somebody pointed out to me Romans 11.

        Yet, pointing it out to other people, I have been amazed how resistant they are to seeing what it says. For me it was an eye opener, for other people it’s almost a horror movie, judging by the way they avoid it.

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      • Vincent, i think a lot of us were in the same boat. Like you i just took for granted what i was being taught was right, and true. It wasn’t until i began to have questions which could not be answered by dispensationalist doctrines that i went out on my own, with much prayer, and sought the answers in God’s Word. What a shock it was to find many of the things i had believed were fact, were not! It took the Holy Spirit removing all these false beliefs and replacing them with truth, which is still an on-going process. My foundation had to be “swept clean” before the Holy Spirit could begin to build biblical theology upon it—His way!

        Having been a dispensationalist for over 25 years, prior to this, you can imagine (and would be right) how much i had to let go of and relearn, the correct way.

        Today i praise God for seeing the desire for truth in my heart all those years ago, and leading me out of so many false beliefs.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I fear so many Christians spend more time reading Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, [insert author name here] books, than they do actually reading their Bible. And sadly, when reading those books they feel they are studying God’s word!

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      • Revelation 20:4
        Christ will reign a thousand years, deal with Satan one last time and reign forevermore.
        I’m having a real hard time using word press whatever. This comment is fairly close to the comment I’m responding to.

        “Samuel, Jesus’ reign is forever and is not limited to a thousand years (whatever period of time that represents). Looking at Revelation 20, it’s those who were beheaded and didn’t worship the beast who “lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (verses 4, 6). Their reign is temporary, but Jesus’ reign is not, and He has been reigning for many centuries.”
        That is in complete contradiction of the Bible no matter how you spin it. -_- You probably think the beast has already “done his job”.

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      • Samuel, only the top two levels of comments have reply buttons so that the replies are not endlessly further indented as people continue to reply to the latest comment. Therefore, if your comment is a direct reply to someone and the thread is already two levels deep, it’s a good idea to begin your reply with that person’s name.

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    • What is Hal Lindsey’s argument about? It appears that you’ve linked to a 28 minute video with no description. Is his video relevant to this post? No offense, but I’m too busy to watch a 28 minute video without having any clue as to what it’s about and whether or not it’ll be worth my time.

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  20. Adam, it’s the Hal Lindsey report…his weekly program. Knowing he is a self-proclaimed dispensationalist and Zionist Christian, i knew after 2 minutes of watching/listening, where he was headed–i was not disappointed. His entire program, was concerning the old testament and Abraham. I would like to reply to Lindsey’s message by sharing the thoughts/words below:

    quote,

    Has the Abrahamic Covenant been fulfilled? Yes. According to the Scriptures, the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled, both physically and Spiritually.

    “And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed. But just as all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the LORD your God has given you, if you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you.” (Joshua 23:14-16)

    We can see that God did fulfill the promise that He made to Israel concerning the land.

    However, we can also see that it was not “unconditional”. In addition, it can be shown that all of the Old Testament Covenants contained the promise of a new and better Covenant, and the Abrahamic Covenant is no exception (see Genesis 22:7,15-18 and compare Galatians 3:7-9; 15-16; 28-29).

    It is Christ who is the culmination of all Old Testament Covenants. He is the “seed of the woman” in the Adamic Covenant (Genesis 3:15), the lifeblood from man in the Noahic Covenant (Genesis 9:5), the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18), the spotless Passover Lamb of the Mosaic Covenant (Deuteronomy 15:19-23), the heir to David’s throne (2 Samuel 7:12-16), and the sole mediator of the new and better covenant (Hebrews 9:15), “so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance”.

    There is no Covenant without Jesus Christ, and there never has been.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Who is the “new covenant” of Hebrews (quoting Jeremiah) with? What nation and what people are necessary for its ultimate fulfillment? If you answered Israel, you are correct. Jesus sees to it that all the promises of God are yes and amen. Especially the very hard and sadly “spiritualized” (by most of the readers of this blog) promises to a specific people group and a land. Seriously, “New Covenant” ultimate fulfillment goes through Israel and God knows who they are, and when Hitler tried to wipe them out he managed to know who they were too, and he did not go looking for 6 million Palestinians, so please don’t fall back to that non-argument.

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    • Hi Chuck… I had to read the last few comments in search of what your comment is responding to, and still don’t know 🙂

      Perhaps you could be more specific concerning what it is you’re trying to say….to who and/or what recent comment it is you’re responding to.

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      • “It is Christ who is the culmination of all Old Testament covenants.” Amen. PJ glad you asked, always willing to expand my thoughts when they are disjointed. So that quote “got me” because the covenants were made with a nation of people and included a physical land and even capital. I, of course do not believe that it takes away from Jesus to see them fulfilled through this small people. It adds to His glory to watch Him fulfill amazing promises in specific literal ways. It detracts from His glory in my opinion to “spiritualize” these promises and make them a “done deal.” Hope that clears it up.

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    • Chuck, I agree with you that it was to be Israel with whom God would establish the new covenant. We disagree, however, on the identity of Israel. God does know who Israel is, and in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and elsewhere, the Israel of God is repeatedly identified as Jesus and those who belong to Him. The idea that Israel is one race of people or the people of one piece of land is explicitly denied by John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, etc.

      As you may remember, about 10 months ago I published a post titled, “God’s Promise of a New Covenant to the House of Israel,” which discussed Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8, etc. It covered these points and more:

      1. God promised, through Jeremiah, that He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and that He would be their God and they would be His people.
      2. In the New Testament, the church is called “the household of faith” and “the household of God”, which is no longer alienated from the commonwealth of Israel or separated from “the covenants of promise.”
      3. In the Old Testament, God repeatedly said that He had chosen Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple as His dwelling place.
      4. In the New Testament, John says Jerusalem has become a dwelling place for demons.
      5. In the New Testament, God declares that the bride of Christ and “the holy city, New Jerusalem” has become His dwelling place, and that He is their God and they are His people.
      6. In the New Testament, the household of God is said to be built on the foundation of the apostles, who are known as “ministers of the new covenant.” Jesus is the cornerstone of God’s new house.

      http://kloposmasm.com/2014/04/08/gods-promise-of-a-new-covenant-to-the-house-of-israel/

      Liked by 2 people

    • Where to begin? The new covenant is made with individuals not nations. It is based on the Lord’s Supper and table fellowship. The land is the whole earth. The great commission is the land grant to the apostles. Your view is to small. The purpose of the cross is reconciliation to break down walls and to create a new humanity. When Christ calls his body the temple was he “spiritualizing” Scripture is literature, beautiful literature, it uses allegory and parable. When Hal Lindsey, in late Great Planet Earth says that John’s ascension into heaven is the rapture of the church (Rev. 4:1) isn’t that spiritualizing? It’s simply bad exegesis (eisegesis really) but he has to put the rapture somewhere so he does it. My primary problem with dispensationalism is that the theology is fixed before the system even allows the New Testament to speak. I think the NT should interpret the OT which puts me in agreement with the reformers and at odds with dispensationalism.

      Liked by 3 people

  22. Thanks Chuck!

    The nation you refer to Chuck was not able to keep the OT covenants—thus we read of their sins and God’s judgments.

    Jesus fulfills the Davidic covenant because He is the King, the Messiah, the Christ, who is David’s son, who rules forever on the Throne: Jesus fulfills the Mosaic covenant as the Perfect Keeper of the law, and paradoxically as the One who suffers the penalties of the law on our behalf: Jesus fulfills the Abrahamic covenant, according to Paul, because He is “The Seed” promised to Abraham (Gal.3:16). The manner in which He, Jesus, fulfills the Adamic-Noahic covenant of creation is to be found in Paul’s argument that He is the “second Adam” (Rom.5:12-21)

    Jesus brings to culmination all the covenants of the OT.

    From: “Introducing the Old Testament: A Short Guide to Its History and Message”

    I know you will disagree Chuck, and this is not “spiritualizing” just the simple truth.

    Also see: Abraham’s Covenant Fulfilled In His True Seed: http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2007/03/abrahams-covenant-fulfilled-in-his-true.html

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    • Bloggers
      1. enjoy your comments, i got 4 grandchildren in Israel
      2. seems pretty simple to me (got to break every thing down to its irreducible design or state
      3. seems to be that the two sisters born in Egypt the two harlots aholah and aholabah metaphorically tells the whole story
      4. older sister was samaria or northern israek younger sister being Judah
      5. first sister by and large disappeared from history, Assyrian wa
      6, second sister was divorced and the settlement was the destruction of the jewish temple system and national government (Babylon thru the plowing of Jersulaem in I think 135 as said the old testament prophet
      7. in romans 11 (hyperbole) all Israel (the one new man) was saved by trecking to Pella
      8. the new covenant established between god and the new man, the man that is neither greek or jew male or female etc—-now reigns, Praise to the lamb, the current king of kings and lord of lords
      so
      come quickly king jesus

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  23. I am struggling with this – in the broadest sense. It is a broad topic. I follow the logic of the writer who speaks about the true descendants of Abraham being those of faith in Christ – Christians in other words, but I also feel very strongly that big areas of history aren’t really very well explained if one follows this course absolutely. For example, how do we really explain anti-sematism (used in its usual meaning of anti-jewish – although I take the point the writer made earlier on too). It seems to me that at many times in history, Jewish people have been persecuted in a supernatural way. I don’t understand this. My one comfort was it was because God still had an important role for them that Satan was trying to destroy. I would welcome the writer’s response.

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    • Christopher I can not let your comment just sit here. Why indeed the progroms, why the specific Jewish hatred of Hitler, why drive them as a people group out of Spain? If our theology has no explanation of this. no answer for it, then maybe we should reconsider our ‘truth’. Why does Zechariah 12,13,14 and Ezekiel 36 and 37 contain specific promises to the land and the people that have never in history been fulfilled? Why after 40 days of teaching from a resurrected Jesus, were the disciples still asking questions about establishing the kingdom of God from Jerusalem on the throne of David? Why was the New Covenant established with Israel and Judah? Is it possible that the truths of God clearly on display in Romans 9-11 speak of a God who sovereignly blinds the hearts of the majority of the Jewish people in order to let in a gentile people to their covenants and their promises to bring them to jealousy and save “all” of them? Is it possible that the curse of not being able to follow the Mosaic law in every point was to be kicked out of the land, but as the prophet Jeremiah wept over what would therefore be a perpetual “returning and exile” God revealed to his heart the incredible beauty of a covenant with Israel and Judah that would not be based on them and their obedience at all, but would be 100% based on His will? Is it possible that we are given a down payment of the promises as individuals that they will walk in the fullness of as an entire saved nation with sons and daughters who prophesy and having no need for teachers because every one knows ME? Why is the Jew back in the land in such a state of unbelief and with a society for the most part far from God? Is it possible this is a set-up for one final exile and controversy of Zion over an everlasting covenant? Is it possible that the hostile nations currently surrounding Jerusalem with an apocalyptic vision to wipe it out are what Zechariah was referring to? Oh, Christopher, I hope and pray that your searching leads you to the truth.

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    • quote: It seems to me that at many times in history, Jewish people have been persecuted in a supernatural way. I don’t understand this.

      Christopher, I believe one very real possibility is we reap what we sow (Gal. 6:7). As the Jews (as a whole) continue to “stumble over the stumbling stone” we see evidence (through out the past 2000 yrs) of the outcome of this continued disobedience.

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      • Old covenant prophecy of the New Covenant needs to be interpreted in light of the New Covenant fulfillment. Jesus is the leader of the New Covenant exodus. Those who follow him both Jew and Gentile are his people. This is the restoration of Israel, which is the theme of the Book of Acts. The kingdom, The Church, restored Israel are all synonyms for the followers of the Way.

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      • I just can not see how this is not the arrogance warned against by Paul in Romans chapter 11 as he explains that blindness in part has happened to Israel, UNTIL…The New Covenant was a promise made to Israel and Judah in the book of Jeremiah because the prophet was deeply burdened by the fact that Israel would always be in a never-ending cycle of disobedience and exile if the Mosaic Covenant was all that there was. In response to the cry of the prophets heart for his people God spoke of the New Covenant where He would make them faithful and give them a new heart. Praise Jesus we believers get to walk in that now, but, that does not, can not, and in Paul’s theology must not usurp the national promise to Israel and Judah. Jewish hatred is rooted in the plan of God to bless all nations through this people, period!

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      • Chuck, if you believe there is a clear distinction between believers and Israel, then what you say totally makes sense and I can see why you believe what you do. However, when you finally realize what Israel really is, you will look at everything differently.

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      • The Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write Romans 11 speaks of the distinction and the absolute sovereign glory of God, that temporarily blinds the unbelieving Jew, UNTIL the (mostly) gentile “church” comes into the likeness of the God we worship, and our love and willingness to suffer for and seek for Gomer matches the sacrificial love found in the ultimate Hosea. Deut. chapter 4 is the answer to Christopher’s question as to why this people group is without a doubt supernaturally persecuted as he has noted. Mercifully, that is not the end of the story the New Covenant made with Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 30-33, is the ultimate “national” redemption story. My redemption story is that of an individual who was obstinate, Christ rejecting and lost. Theirs will be the same story on a national level.

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      • Chuck, what does it mean for a nation to be redeemed? Does every single person have to accept Christ? Or maybe just a high percentage? 90%? 80%? Who decides what that percentage is? At what point can you say that nation has turned to Christ? And is it only those Jews living in the last days who will turn to Christ and be saved? And if that’s God’s plan, then doesn’t it seem rather selective of him to exclude all those Jews who have died before?

        Or maybe, just maybe, all those people who have died, whether Jew or gentile, have had the same opportunity to come to Christ as you and I have, regardless of where (or when) they live or who they claim as their forefathers, since in Christ we have become a single nation.

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      • God is a 100% God, Vincent. “They will all know me” is the promise of God to Jeremiah about the Jewish nation in Jeremiah 34:31. It is simple and it is clear if we read the words with no preconceived ideas of their meaning. Back to Christopher’s original question which is what God used to draw me back to this blog. Why anti-semitism, why Jewish hatred is so supernaturally alive and well both in our day and through out history? PJ Miller had an interesting insight “we reap what we sow (Gal. 6:7). As the Jews (as a whole) continue to “stumble over the stumbling stone” we see evidence (through out the past 2000 yrs) of the outcome of this continued disobedience.” Covenant curses are actually a very real, very alive evidence of covenant faithfulness, God’s continual punishment is meant to awaken in the Jewish people an ‘agreement with God’, that no longer can they cling to the Mosaic Covenant, but they need to come into the beauty and fullness of the New Covenant through Jesus Christ. And the beauty of the promises of Jeremiah 30-33 and Ezekiel 36,37 and too many other chapters to mention is that on the Day of the Lord God sovereignly, supernaturally, fulfills ALL of His promises to the nation Israel and this makes His name great among the nations and they fulfill their call to be a witness nation to all the nations of the earth. (Zechariah 12-14) I can even see a point of agreement with Vincent in this phrase “since in Christ we have become a single nation”. My perspective is that as Paul says in a few different places (Eph. 2, Romans 11 for starters) we are grafted into their vine, partakers of their promises, by grace we are brought into their election and made members of their commonwealth. In summary (and I pray Christopher is still able to be following this) Jewish hatred has everything to do with the promise of God to have a witness nation on the earth, with a King ruling from a throne in Jerusalem, we are seeing the everlasting covenant inspiring the everlasting hatred of those who will not bow their knee to the sovereign election of God.

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  24. appreciate the comments
    question was there indeed two churches ie the 28 chapter of acts where paul states that he is going to the gentiles vs the romans one new man topic, the grafted in; neither jew nor gentile seemingly the church of the apostles and so to speak received the promise at pentecost

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