Psalm 33:12 and God’s Chosen Nation


Psalm 33:12 and God’s Chosen Nation

by Adam Maarschalk (December 3, 2010)

Psalm 33:12 is a familiar verse to many people. In the United States, it’s often cited in patriotic sermons or at political events along with a declaration that the US is a Christian nation. This is how the verse reads (see here for its context):

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom He has chosen as His heritage!”

When studying Scripture, it’s important to consider the original intent of the author—as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit—and who was in his original audience (a study method known as “exegesis”). It’s also good to then consider the meaning and application of a given text to one’s own life and time (known as “hermeneutics”). With this in mind, and given your overall knowledge of Scripture, which of these combinations do you believe to be correct for Psalm 33:12?

ORIGINAL AUDIENCE: PRESENTLY APPLIED TO:
Ancient Israel The modern-day nation of Israel and/or the Jewish people
Ancient Israel The nation of Israel, in the future
Ancient Israel The United States of America, at least ideally
Ancient Israel The Church, the body of Christ

I will assume that there is no disagreement regarding the original audience of this Psalm of David, but if there is please do feel free to express your understanding in the Comments section below. Were you surprised to see option #2 listed above? I was certainly surprised the other day when I saw that a fairly well-known pastor and author proposed this as the primary meaning of Psalm 33:12. This is what prompted me to write this post actually. This assertion was made by Pastor Happy Caldwell, founder of Agape Church, a mega church in Little Rock, Arkansas. Caldwell is also an Executive Board Member with Christians United for Israel (CUFI), the influential pro-Israel organization founded by John Hagee. Caldwell wrote the following in the November 23, 2010 CUFI Weekly Update:

The counsel of the Lord standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord: And the people whom He hath chosen for His own inheritance”.

In this Scripture we see the “future” of the nation of Israel, God’s chosen people.  God calls those things that be not as though they were.  He speaks the end results from the beginning. (Job 42:12) (Ecclesiastes 7:8) (Isaiah 46:9, 10)

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not evil, to give you an expected end”.  (Jeremiah 29:11)

As we pray for Israel today, let us remember God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Let us stand together with the Nation of Israel and thank God for the “expected end” . . . which is total peace, prosperity and victory.

The counsel of the Lord standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations.”

In other words, according to Caldwell, this passage (Psalm 33:11-12), which was written roughly 3000 years ago, is not presently being fulfilled, but it will be fulfilled one day for the geopolitical nation of Israel. To be fair, it’s not clear whether or not Caldwell believes this was once fulfilled in ancient Israel prior to the destruction of that nation in 70 AD. Caldwell also asserts that “God’s chosen people” is made up of the citizens of the nation of Israel (In his mind, does this include the Palestinians, since out of Israel’s population of about 7.6 million people nearly 2 million are non-Jewish?). It’s also clear that Caldwell makes a direct association between the modern nation of Israel and God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We’ll discuss shortly why all these assertions are highly problematic.

The “biblecc” website is one I’ve found to be helpful in that it provides parallel commentaries for any given Scripture passage (as well as parallel translations). Their entry for Psalm 33:12 includes commentary from Albert Barnes (1834), Adam Clarke (1831), John Gill (1746-63), Charles Spurgeon – The Treasury of David (1869-85), the Geneva Study Bible, and Matthew Henry. The comments at the end of Albert Barnes’ entry are notable (emphasis added):

“And the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance – Chosen to be “His;” or, His portion. The primary reference here is undoubtedly to the Hebrew people, called his “inheritance:” Deuteronomy 4:20Deuteronomy 9:26Deuteronomy 32:9Psalm 74:2Psalm 78:62Psalm 78:71; or “heritage,” Psalm 94:5Jeremiah 12:7,Jeremiah 12:9; but what is here affirmed of that people is true also of all other people who worship the true God.”

Barnes points to nine Old Testament passages where the term “inheritance” or “heritage” is used as a reference to the ancient nation of Israel. Is he correct in saying that “what is here affirmed of that people is true also of all other people who worship the true God”? Does the New Testament bear this out?

It certainly does. God’s major announcement in Exodus 19 regarding His chosen people finds its New Testament equivalent in I Peter 2, and a comparison of these two passages is very revealing. The following is an excerpt from a post I wrote in September titled, “Who Are God’s Chosen People and Why Are They Chosen?”

God has only ever had one chosen people, and no one (regardless of race) is part of God’s chosen people if they are outside of Christ. God’s chosen people in Old Testament times were chosen for the same purpose as God’s chosen people at this time. Compare what was spoken by Moses to “the people of Israel” (Exodus 19:3) to what has been spoken to the Church through Peter. The parallel language is unmistakable, and I have letter-coded the parallels (A, B, and C):

[1] To ancient national Israel: “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be [A]MY TREASURED POSSESSION among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to Me [B] A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS and a [C] HOLY NATION…” (Exodus 19:5-6).

[2] To the Church: “But you are a chosen race, [B] A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a [C] HOLY NATION, a people [A] FOR HIS OWN POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people…” (I Peter 2:9-10).

Can there be any question that the Church is chosen for the same purpose that the nation of Israel was once chosen? …Israel has never ceased to exist. The body of Christ today IS Israel in every true sense (see, for example, Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 6:16). Outside of Christ there is no Israel (as God’s people), despite the fact that a secular, political nation in the Middle East happens to bear that name today. Romans 9:6-8 is most profound on this point (parenthetical notes are mine): “…For not all who are descended from [natural] Israel belong to [spiritual] Israel, and not all are [spiritual] children of Abraham because they are his [physical] offspring…it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” See this article for an excellent explanation of Galatians 6:16’s use of the phrase “the Israel of God” to refer to the Church: http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html. Furthermore, we who are in Christ are spiritual Jews, so to speak: “For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter…” (Romans 2:28-29; see also Philippians 3:3).

Galatians 3:16 further points out that all the promises were made to Abraham and his offspring, “referring to One, ‘And to your offspring,’ who is Christ.” In the same chapter, Paul says, “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29). Does Paul leave any room for those who are outside of Christ to be heirs of the promises? No, he doesn’t, not even for unbelieving Jews. Nor did Jesus (see, for example, John 8:31-47), nor does the New Testament in any place.

Today many teach that the Jews (meaning all ethnic Jews) are God’s chosen people. I believe this is classic false teaching. I Peter 2:9-10, already quoted here, makes it explicitly clear why God’s chosen people, the body of Christ (believing Jews and Gentiles), are chosen. His people have been called out of darkness and now have the privilege of proclaiming His excellencies to those who are still in darkness. Unbelieving Jews remain in darkness, and cannot possibly carry out any such calling. For those who teach that all ethnic Jews are God’s chosen people, the question remains: What are they (allegedly) chosen for at this present time?

It’s for these same reasons that America cannot qualify as God’s chosen heritage, the nation spoken of in Psalm 33:12. The majority of people in America remain in darkness, just like the majority of Jews, and they don’t know the excellencies of Christ’s salvation, let alone have the ability to proclaim them. This calling belongs exclusively to those who are in Christ. Why do we look elsewhere, whether to America or to the nation of Israel, to find some group to fulfill it? Likewise, for Happy Caldwell to speak of Psalm 33:12 as awaiting a future fulfillment for a geopolitical nation is for him to effectively deny that God has had a chosen people for the last 2000 years walking in holiness as His special possession and proclaiming the gospel to those walking in darkness.

CUFI ornament depicting Israeli and US flag

SOURCE

In another excerpt from the Sept. 2010 post on God’s chosen people, we saw a quick rundown on what the New Testament has to say about God’s chosen people and why they are chosen:

[1] “For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14; see verses 1-13 for context).

[2] “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you” (John 15:16).

[3] “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:19).

[4] “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him…” (Ephesians 1:3-4; see also verses 5-14 for an even fuller description of what belongs to God’s chosen people).

[5] See also Ephesians 2:11-22 [The word “chosen” is not used, but this passage speaks of God bringing those who were far off (Gentiles) “near by the blood of Christ,” creating “one new man”, “one body,” and breaking down the wall of hostility that separated them (us) from the “the commonwealth of Israel” and “the covenants of promise.”]

[6] “Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience…” (Colossians 3:11-12).

[7] “As you come to Him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ… But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy” (I Peter 2:4-10).

Clearly God’s chosen people, according to these passages, are strictly those who belong to Christ. It’s all about bearing spiritual fruit, not being of this world, having every single spiritual blessing, being holy and blameless, being God’s own special possession, proclaiming His excellencies to those who are in darkness, receiving mercy, etc.

Again, these things aren’t true and can’t be true for unbelieving Jews, unbelieving Americans, unbelievers in any location, or for any geopolitical nation as a whole. Yet they are true for the Church. For those who are in Christ, let us rejoice that we are blessed to be part of that nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His heritage.

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All posts on the subject of Christian Zionism can be found here.

The Manhattan Declaration: Distorting the Gospel


The context of this post is that it’s a reproduction of something I recently posted as a note on Facebook. As it contains a sizeable amount of research, I’ve decided to also post it here. I was first made aware of the Manhattan Declaration on an excellent blog site: www.pjmiller.wordpress.com, where several articles have been written on this topic (please refer to the end of this post for links to those articles). This post deals with the Manhattan Declaration and also the topic of nationalism in general. Some of what I’ve written here is a reflection of my own process of searching my heart to see where nationalism has [1] distracted me from what is more important (the message of Christ and Him crucified), and/or [2] tainted my perspective on things which are eternal. I’m still on that journey.

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–by Adam Maarschalk–

In my previous note, “Has Nationalism Taken Priority over the Gospel in Our Hearts?” I expressed some of my views regarding nationalism and the high priority that it has for many professing Christians here in the US. To be clear again, my point is not that all political involvement is illegitimate. I also have my own political opinions, and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t. At the same time, my growing sense is that for many of us who say we follow Christ, nationalism has both overshadowed the gospel and distorted its message in our minds. Here is a statement I made in my previous post:

I think that too many of us [i.e. followers of Christ] in this nation have become more passionate about taking on political causes, proclaiming the superiority of the United States, and fighting ‘liberalism’ than we are about proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and upholding Biblical truth.

Recently the national media has given some coverage to The Manhattan Declaration (http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/), an ecumenical initiative dealing with [1] the sanctity of life [2] the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union between husband and wife [3] the rights of conscience and human liberty. While there are points of social concern outlined in this declaration which I could agree with, these same points could be agreed upon by many who don’t even claim to be Christian. The greater issue at stake here is again this: the distortion and even redefining of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and of our purpose as God’s people here on earth. This is again evident in the issues surrounding the Manhattan Declaration.

In the Preamble to this document, it is said that Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical Christians are united “as followers of Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Lord, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” To be sure, this is a wonderful thing to be united upon, if only it were true that these three groups are united in this way. This statement clearly makes light of the Reformation led by Martin Luther in the 16th century. What has fundamentally changed so that Catholicism now clearly stands firm on the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is an issue which deserves its own post, so I will say no more at this point (however, it is dealt with at more length in one of the links I will provide below).

Then in the FAQ section (under #8), we read:

So the signatories are happy to stand alongside our LDS brothers and sisters who have worked so heroically in the cause of defending marriage, our Jewish brothers and sisters, members of other faiths, and people of no particular faith (even pro-life atheists such as the great Nat Hentoff), who affirm our principles and wish to join us in proclaiming and defending them.

Mormons and religious Jews are our “brothers and sisters”??? Really? The issues highlighted in this declaration are NOT more important than clarity regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ and what it means to be His followers. It gets worse…

Jim Daly, the President and CEO of Focus on the Family [and I don’t have to tell you how influential this organization is], is one of the principle signatories of this declaration. Please pay close attention to how he explains his rationale for signing it, keeping in mind that Christians in the US are his target audience:

Given the magnitude of this document…I’d like to share with you now why I was so eager to sign it—and why I hope you will, too.

It is important, first off, to note that the Manhattan Declaration is not a partisan or political statement… Instead, it addresses and elevates four specific areas of universal consensus. Some have referred to these as ‘threshold issues,’ meaning they represent the foundation of our faith and the pivot point from which everything else flows. This is the bedrock. If we can’t agree on these areas of doctrine, everything else will be of reduced value.

These four areas are:

1. The sanctity of life
2. The sanctity of marriage
3. The protection of religious liberty
4. The rejection of unjust laws

Sources (emphasis added):
[1] http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=14254
[2] http://biblicalthought.com/blog/discussing-the-manhattan-declaration/

If you’re a believer and reading this, I hope you find Daly’s statement as disturbing as I do. The foundation of my faith is Jesus and Him crucified and the truth revealed in Scripture, not four political/social issues. The last two areas listed by Daly aren’t even doctrines, by any stretch of the imagination. Ephesians 2:19-21 tells us very clearly what the foundation of our faith is.

Daly wants you and I to place our faith on a foundation other than Christ. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, and unbelievers of many persuasions could agree with these four “areas of doctrine.” No thank you, Mr. Daly. You’re preaching another gospel. I’ll keep my faith on a foundation that can’t be shaken when politics fail.

Chuck Colson, one of the three framers of this document, has also repeatedly referred to these tenets as being part and parcel of the gospel. In one place, he says,

Just imagine what could happen if we could say to the world that a million Christians have made this pledge—that we will not compromise the faith, no matter what. I think that would have an extraordinary impact on American culture. And just as important, I believe the Manhattan Declaration can help revitalize the church in America. One great weakness of the Church today is its biblical and doctrinal ignorance. This document is, in fact, a form of catechism for the foundational truths of the faith. Now, opponents of the document have tried to paint it as a political tool—a way to resurrect the religious right. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Source: http://www.breakpoint.org/commentaries/13626-just-the-beginning (emphasis added)

Why would the framers and key signatories continue to equate these tenets with the gospel, and then invite unbelievers to commit to them? Not only that, but all who sign are now told that they have pledged to never compromise the gospel (even if they are unbelievers!). On the MD’s official website, there is now a “Message to All Signers of the Manhattan Declaration,” where one will see the following words:

We believe God is looking for good men and women who will pledge (as those who have done in signing the Manhattan Declaration), never to compromise the gospel, and to become well-informed, effective advocates of true and godly principles.

Source: http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/for-signers-whats-next

Now wait a minute! How can this be? This goes far beyond affirming Catholicism as holding to the Biblical gospel (which it does not), and calling Mormons and Jews our “brothers and sisters” (in the faith?), which is compromise enough. Remember that the framers of this document invited “members of other faiths, and people of no particular faith (even pro-life atheists…)” to sign. How can Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and others who are not followers of Christ never “compromise the gospel”? They haven’t yet believed the message of the gospel, much less been transformed by it, much less be in a position to never compromise it.

If the framers had kept this document purely political, that would be one thing (although I still wouldn’t sign it), but they are providing one of the muddiest definitions of the gospel I’ve ever seen. This document has a political agenda, pure and simple, despite what Chuck Colson has said. Here is Colson in his own words, as reported in the New York Times:

‘We argue that there is a hierarchy of issues. A lot of younger evangelicals say they’re all alike. We’re hoping to educate them that these are the three most important issues’ – abortion, marriage, and religious liberty.”

Source: http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/wuerl_colson_christian/2009/11/21/289471.html

There are plenty of reasons why Colson’s statement is not necessarily true (especially regarding religious liberty) and should be debated, but I’ll leave it alone. Artificially fixing these or any social ills through legislation and heavy political action won’t ultimately change the hearts of people in this nation. The gospel will, and that’s what is being marginalized and distorted by this and many other initiatives. I can’t and won’t sign this document, for the reasons already given and others. I could say a lot more, but I’d like to instead point to two excellent articles on this subject. The first one can be found here—it’s a comprehensive list of 19 thought-provoking questions for professing evangelicals who have signed, or are thinking about signing, this document:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/nineteen-questions-for-signers-of.html

This in-depth post from Steve Camp, a former recording artist whose lyrics might remind some of Keith Green, is also very good:

http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2005/08/new-downgrade12-dangers-of-ecb.html

These statements near the beginning of this article jumped out at me right away:

In John 18:36 our Lord says these surprising words in answer to an inquisition by Pontius Pilate, ‘…If my kingdom were of this world, my disciples would be fighting…’ These words cut straight to the heart of the matter before us today. Clearly, the Lord’s kingdom is not of this world. Jesus did not come as a social revolutionary to clean up the culture from lascivious delinquents; or as a religious zealot to overthrow the Sanhedrin; or even as a political agitator to dethrone the Emperor. His kingdom is eternal; it is not of this world…

But why then is it today, beloved, that we do see His disciples fighting? –and fighting not for eternal things, but for the temporal things of this earth. Fighting for religious rights; fighting against unregenerate people for acting like unregenerate people; fighting against the secularization of public policy; fighting for a social moral imperative; fighting against senate filibusters; fighting for family values, etc. And yet, with an eerie wholesale silence we don’t see them contending for the faith, boasting in the cross, heralding the good news of the gospel of grace through faith in Christ alone, and proclaiming Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the answer for the social ills plaguing our society today.[1]

Of course, Steve Camp is speaking generally here, and not saying that no one is preaching the gospel. Just like in my recent note, he is asking what we as believers in this nation are most passionate about. Which one overshadows the other: politics/nationalism or the gospel? Steve Camp goes on to list 12 dangers of what he calls “Evangelical Co-Belligerence.” I find his points very thought-provoking… All are very good, but #5, 7, 9, and 12 perked my interest the most. Here are his points in skeleton form (he elaborates on all of them in the link I provided, and this is well worth reading):

1. The Lack of Biblical Foundation (for engaging in “culture wars”)
2. The Removal of the Offense of the Cross
3. The Secularization of Being “Salt and Light”
4. The Promotion of a Moral Human Imperative
5. The Denial of the Efficacy of the Gospel
6. The Condoning of Unequally-Yoked Alliances
7. The Alienation of Unbelievers for “Acting Like Unbelievers”
8. The Body of Christ Turned Into Political Agitators
9. The ECB Political Entitlement—“Religious Rights”
10. The Pagan Co-Belligerents—Still “Safe” in Their Sin
11. The Church Turned PAC/Lobbyist/Voting Force
12. The Inevitable Conclusion: Win the Culture War; Lose a Voice for the Gospel

Camp closes his post with these words:

When one eliminates the centrality of the gospel from the social cause; or amputates the call to repentance to unregenerate people they’d rather play politics with, share picket lines with, boycott corporations with, legislate morality with, and strong arm politicians by militant means with—rather than deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Jesus Christ with; when one tries to focus on everything from family; to culture wars; to filibusters; to elections; to religious rights; to a bankrupt social moral imperatives; rather than on focusing on the Lord and His ‘once for all faith delivered to the saints’, where does this all lead? …May the church turn away from this defection from Christ and His Word and come back to the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel as the cure for the sin sick hearts of mankind.

Finally, I would also like to close by referring to an interview by Charlie Rose with Greg Boyd, a pastor here in the Minneapolis area, regarding his book, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church.” For those who know of Boyd, you probably know that he embraces what is known as “open theism,” and I’m certainly not on board with that. Setting that aside for now, I do appreciate and agree with what he says in this interview, found here (the total running time for these three video segments is 21 minutes):

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWs_G4oJaA&feature=related
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLTsefTbL1I&feature=related
[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBQPN0rVs1I&feature=related

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Further recommended articles:
[1] http://mytwocents.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/for-god-and-country-politics-and-the-gospel/
[2] http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/why-electing-palin-or-huckabee-makes-more-sense-to-you-than-reforming-your-church
[3] http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-tactics-of-failure-why-the-culture-war-makes-sense-to-spiritually-empty-evangelicals
[4] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/is-obama-really-the-problem/
[5] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/confession-of-a-radical/

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Articles to date on PJ Miller’s site regarding the Manhattan Declaration:

[1] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/christian-leaders-unite-on-political-issues/
[
2] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/around-the-blogosphere-the-manhattan-declaration/
[3] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/another-reason-why-ill-never-support-the-manhattan-declaration/
[4] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/the-manhattan-declaration-a-parable/
[5] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/is-there-ever-an-exception/
[6] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/the-manhattan-declaration-our-regretful-inability-to-become-a-signatory/
[7] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/covenants-oaths-promises-and-pledges/
[8] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/the-dangers-of-cobelligerence/
[9] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/the-dung-of-our-own-righteousness-the-manhattan-declaration/
[10] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/the-new-ecumenism/
[11] http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/the-manhattan-declaration-drum-beat/


[1] In a similar way, I posed this question in my previous note, and I still present it as an open challenge to fellow believers:

“I think our priorities are misplaced. Let’s say I publicly question the teachings of high-profile preachers who claim to be anointed yet distort the gospel, preach heresy, and dishonor the name of Jesus every day on TBN, GOD TV, The Word Network, etc. Surely I will hear “Don’t judge”, “touch not the Lord’s anointed”, “that’s not loving,” etc. But if I were to blast away at President Obama (whose authority has been instituted by God—Romans 13:1, Daniel 2:21, John 19:11), the policies of this administration, or anything deemed liberal, I would get all kinds of “amens” and thumbs up [from my Conservative friends on Facebook]. Something’s wrong, and to me this is a clear double standard [as well as illustrating what is and isn’t so important to us].”